Shaun Cassidy - The Bucket List Interview: SUPERSIZED EDITION

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Hi, this is Shaun Cassidy and you are listening to the pop culture Preservation Society with Kristen, and Carolyn and Michelle and Shaun Cassidy. Which is not one word, but they say it like one word.

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Today's episode back by popular demand at chosen by you the listeners and followers of the pop culture Preservation Society is our bucket list interview with America's favorite 70s teen idol Shaun Cassidy.

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I think we can all agree that if there is one word to describe the experience that we had with Shaun Cassidy on that day was surprising. It was a surprising day, it was not what we expected from a former teen idol. And we now know that it was surprising for him to we asked him questions that he did not expect. So just like he showed up, as far more than a former teen idol, we showed up as far more than people stuck in their glory days. And I know that you guys were surprised by things too. And so I want to ask you, if you could choose one word to describe Shaun Cassidy on this day or this experience, what would it be?

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Just one, I know just start with the first thing that that instantly comes to my mind that instantly came to my mind while we were in that moment is authentic. Yeah, he's so authentic. And I think you can use that for just a lot of different things about the conversation you're about to hear, but also just who he is in his life. He's honest. And he's real until you get what you see. But it's not true. Because there's so much more really beneath him that you don't see. Yeah, it's like that picture of the Titanic with the tiny little iceberg on top. And then this giant iceberg below the water. Oh my god. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. I only see the tiny iceberg at the top. Really? That's all you see. Yeah. I'm gonna go with articulate. I thought that he was so thoughtful in his, whatever he said to us his delivery, and measure there weren't. There weren't like just talking to talk. He really thought through the answers and gave such

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authentic just real true.

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Life lessons, almost. I mean, today, when I was listening, I thought we need to start a whole line of Shaun Cassidy quotes on cards because yeah, he had some one liners that kind of summed up life experiences, you know, his life experiences that could be translated to everybody's and I love guys that articulate. Let me just say, I mean girls to women. I love people that are articulate, but I find him and sexy when a guy can communicate and pick the right words and will be so spot on. And just very profound to what he was saying and his thoughts and let's not forget, I mean, he's a storyteller, right? He is. And so even in his answers, and in his very thoughtful reflections on his career, and the past, the present and even the future. It was almost like he was weaving a story. And and it was just everything we've said it was surprising. It was authentic. It was thoughtful, it was profound. It was real.

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My, the word that I that keeps coming to me. I didn't. This isn't an exercise like huh, what word would it be? The reason I'm asking this is because there were so many words coming to me as I really listened to the episode. And the first one that kept coming to me was grounded.

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So incredibly grounded. Which when you think about what our first impressions of Shaun Cassidy were in 1977, with the feathered hair and the satin pants and the Hardy Boys and whatnot, and the family that he comes from my God, right, Hollywood royalty, David Cassidy, Shirley Jones, Jack Cassidy. The last thing that you would imagine a person from that background to be is grounded. His feet are so firmly planted on the ground, he knows what direction he's facing. He does not seem fazed by the hoopla that has been swirling around him his entire life. And even you'll hear this in the interview. Even when he was the 18 year old kid in the satin pants. He was grounded. I don't know how Shirley Jones did that. But she did. And we talk about that in this interview yet he almost tells us it was inspired his family and everything that he felt like this. This was him it was maybe a matter of survival. Right if I'm going to get through this, this drama.

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I'm gonna have to keep both my eyes on the horizon and keep my feet on the ground. The other word that came to me is

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As a noun rather than a descriptor, he is an observer. He is not the person who wants to be in who has to be the center of attention. He is the person who wants to be in the audience. And everything is a stage to him. And he is observing how people are behaving, how they are asking questions, what words are they saying, and then he's drawing conclusions like you use the word measured. Carolyn, this observation in him is so measured, which again does not jive with a person who gyrates on stage in certain pants. So we say that in a joking manner, but it is quite serious. And that the juxtaposition of these two personas is quite stark. He is not the person saying, Look at me Look at me. It's really, really interesting. That's why he has so many things to say that are so profound, and why he's so articulate about these things, because he's observing everything. And then he's thinking very hard. And quite often in the interview, there will be silence, because we'll ask him a question. And he doesn't start talking right away. He thinks first, he wants to get it right. And I don't think that we as a society give ourselves permission to do that. Mm hmm. Amen. Well, it's because he's a writer. And because that's, that's his superpower. Really. He says, In this interview, you'll hear listeners, he says, he's more internal, he's introverted. He can pretend but he doesn't need it. He is much more comfortable. Not being on the stage. And he did love acting. So I when I say not on the stage, I mean, in the set of hands. Now, he'll still do that now. And you're going to hear the great reason he still is back performing on the stage in that way. And we don't want to give that away. But it's almost like he had two different personas. Like we just said, we know from this conversation that he sees himself first and foremost, as a writer. In fact, hill he says it he says it to us. I'm not a performer by nature. I'm a writer. And we do discuss that in various ways. He sold the script for his first series American Gothic while he was on Broadway with David doing blood brothers. But what I didn't know is that he really helped create the whole genre of TV we are watching and then it's so wildly popular today. My husband recently watched both American Gothic and invasion to have Sean's series. And he was seriously blown away. American Gothic is it's a dark thriller that walks the line between horror and the supernatural and the real world. Much like American horror horror story did but you guys, Shawn did it in 1995 American Horror Story wouldn't come out for another 16 years so crazy with the same actress Sarah Paulson, by the West, you need to watch American Gothic she's so dear. She's.

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So basically Shawn started the whole antihero, dark, shocking. I can't believe they did that on TV genre we've been watching for the last 20 years. That includes hits like Oz The Sopranos, Dexter, Breaking Bad, currently Yellow Jackets Fargo. But it was Shaun Cassidy who wrote that oh, gee type. And it's really pretty incredible where he fits into the evolution of entertainment. So I don't know next time you guys that you're feeling really grateful for Hey, Dini, or did you Ron Ron. And for him being your first crush? Also take a minute and be grateful for the influence he had on many of the stories we have consumed over our lifetime. Because even if he doesn't have a writing credit on them, Shaun Cassidy was behind them. Yeah. And so much of this is unbeknownst to us as Shaun Cassidy fans, like I said, we think of one thing. And there is this very almost diametrically opposed thing that was happening right underneath our noses. American Gothic is a great rewatch. I just rewatched it recently also, and it has almost a because it's 30 years old, right? This is this is a long, long time ago. It feels so current and yet there's this little tinge of like Alfred Hitchcock or something in it because of the style of camera work and the the colors that are in it. It just feels a little bit vintage. It's a yummy watch. It's delicious. Well, and because it was 1995 two, that's right. There's a vintage

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Sorry, sorry.

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Go that was a full grown adult. And listeners if you're wanting to watch American Gothic and invasion is also like I would pop in when Brian was watching it. And I would just become like, oh, and like have to walk out like

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there's a nugget in this episode that I'm not going to say right now about ingestion that will change how you look at TV. Right?

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wanna sell what the writers are doing in their mind to come to a story? You'll be like, Wow, mind blown mind blown well, so you can, what I was gonna say is you can buy, you can do have to buy both of those series on Amazon. They're very inexpensive though, and so worth it for Because don't forget, you're gonna get like 28 episodes or something.

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And you're going to see familiar faces besides Sarah Paulson, you're going to see Gary Cole. You know, you might think Gary Cole from Veep, and The Good Wife and the West Wing. And let's not forget Mike Brady from The Brady Bunch. Oh, yes.

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You're gonna see Elizabeth, a very young Elizabeth Moss. And if you're a New Amsterdam watcher, which let's not forget, that's the most current writing that he's done. And the so proud of, you'll see his friend Tyler Levine, who played Dr. Ag from on he on New Amsterdam, he is one of the main characters in invasion. So they're both definitely worth it. Well, I wanted to say that listening again, this time was such a gift. Because the first time well, in real time when we were actually interviewing him, that was such a surreal experience. And I was not absorbing the things that he was necessarily saying, which is something I want to get better at. And it's something he did very well, he listened to us and absorb what we were saying kind of again, that measured kind of approach before he answered back. So any words of wisdom he gave us during that episode, those were not sinking in. And then I realized, as an editor, I listened to it in a totally different way, when I'm preparing it for your ears, listeners. So and then I listened to it so much when I'm doing that, but I don't really have a desire after it is all put together to listen to it again. So this was so nice, because not only is it a year later, and I can reflect I just got to listen to it as kind of the complete package. But he, again, I said this earlier today, but he did leave so many drops of wisdom throughout this episode. But one of the things that I took away, that actually is maybe going to change the way I move forward from today, I am revisiting this novel idea that I had. And what I mean is idea for a novel. And I don't know if it'll ever sight Yes, well, that I'll attempt right. But he talks about, he says, don't know if he's asking us or he's saying what happens to him. But there'll be a scene that he'll just keep going over and over in his head, it'll just keep popping in just one scene, not a show, not anything, just this one scene and from that experience, that scene and he writes about, it kind of becomes the show. So it's not a show. And let me have all the scenes with like, oh, what my show about three podcasters blah, blah. It's this one particular scene that just keeps coming up in his head that he realizes it's not leaving me alone, I got to do something with it. And I have that scene for a book. And I have like what I consider maybe one of the best

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metaphors or similes out there that's ever been written. I haven't I want you all to know. So maybe there'll be

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a big share. Now. It's her big magic, and I don't want anyone to steal it. Yeah. Because you know, well, that's all you have to grab hold of it again, right Big Magic and leave me alone me, someone else will not leave me alone. And after he said that. And that's how his you know, he says, that's usually how things begin. It's the launch pad for a five year television series in my brain. I don't know what it is yet. I don't know who the characters are. But he knows the scene. And so thank you, Shawn. I'm taking that advice. And, and who knows where this will go. I also had one of probably one of my favorite moments in in the interview is when I got to ask him about worldwide crush, because it was very important to me that I that he knew that there was a novel that was inspired by a young girl's experience of falling in love with Joe Hardy. That's not nothing. Yes. Joe Hardy is a fictional character Shaun Cassidy and the satin pants is kind of a fictional character too. But it's not nothing. It's an experience that we shared. And the moment when we began talking about that, it was you'll hear it in the interview, there's a little pause. And I'm like, oh, no, I've annoyed him.

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But instead, when he starts to speak, you can hear that he's gotten very emotional. And you guys that is a moment that I will hold in the palm of my hand for the rest of my life. Well, and I think to what you're about to hear listeners, he's certainly talking a lot especially the first the first part of the interview about his his new show his one man show, basically with a band but how it's not just him up there singing to do

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Run, run. It's storytelling. And it's a celebration of all of us. It's a collective experience of not just him onstage, singing the songs and telling the stories, but he's really honoring everybody in the audience. And, again, I am not going to give anything away. Because I don't want to, I want you to hear him say it, when he talks about why that's so powerful for him right now and why this show is so meaningful for him. And, and for us, too, for watching it because it's not just us going and seeing our 1978 teen idol up there singing the songs. It's much bigger than that. Yeah, exactly, is much bigger. And so then we go back to him being authentic and thoughtful and profound and surprising, because that's also what his show is. And I really do hope that show gets in our life.

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No, I don't want it to

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apologize.

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That

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I do want to mention, too, that there are at the end of this episode, you will just in case you don't cut it Carolyn, at the end of this episode, you'll hear us talk about all sorts of events that we'll be doing,

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inviting you to a variety of events, some of them for the launch of worldwide crush, that'll happen last year. So those events are not happening. Now. Remember, this is a rerun, it's nice to revisit this conversation right now, especially in the piece where we're talking about worldway Crush, because Carolyn and I right now are on the verge of pressing send for the audiobook version of worldwide crush, giving birth to it, again, is just joy all over the place. And this time I get to do it with my people, right where this is. This is a group project. So it's appropriate that we're talking about Shaun Cassidy today. At that moment, when this first came out, I was on the verge of releasing the book worldwide crush as we're talking about it again. Today, we are on the verge of releasing the audiobook version of worldwide crush. So everybody cross your fingers. Yes. Thank you, everybody for being with us today. This is a long one. We tried to keep it short here because it's a long episode in general. But it's hard to stop talking about Shaun Cassidy. So you might need a couple of walks to get this one in.

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Had no sound that was saying.

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Come on get

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in

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will make you

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welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society, the podcast for people born in the big wheel generation who know what it means to be in the group. Quite literally. We believe our Gen X childhoods gave us unforgettable songs, stories, characters and images. And if we don't talk about them, they'll disappear like Marshall will and Holly on a routine expedition.

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And today, we bring you an interview with the person who has been the number one entry on our bucket list since the day this podcast began. If you've been with us from the beginning, you understand why today is the day that we bring you our conversation with Shaun Cassidy. I'm Carolyn, I'm Kristen. And I'm Michelle and we are your pop culture preservationists.

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The person we're interviewing today has played roles in people's lives that he's not even aware of, in part by inspiring first crushes in an entire generation of kids as a crime fighting mystery solving part time singer on ABCs Hardy Boys Nancy Drew mysteries in the late 1970s. But then he grew up just like we all did. And he eventually made his way behind the camera to bring us decades of noteworthy TV programming, including New Amsterdam, a hospital drama that became one of network TV's biggest hits of the streaming era. He is a descendant of TV and film royalty, being the son of Shirley Jones and Jack Cassidy and the half brother of David Cassidy. And he has continued this legacy with his writing and producing and most recently by bringing the music of his late 70s music career back to the stage to the delight of middle aged women all across the nation. Unbeknownst to him, he is the reason this podcast exists. And he is inspired at least one novel. It is beyond surreal for me to utter the words. Shaun Cassidy. Welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society. Thank you, Kristen. It's great to be here.

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It's astonishing to be here. I'm amazed that your podcast was

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Inspired by me, we feel like this moment has been faded ever since Kristen and I jumped on a plane in 2019 for a 24 hour whirlwind trip to see our very first crush in concert, not in a stadium, not in a theater. But a small winery in California were around maybe 100 People gathered to hear you, Shawn perform. And Kristin and I were beyond privileged to be in that audience. Oh my gosh. And the reason this was so exciting was because the last time you would performed for your fans was almost 40 years earlier in 1982, a crowd of almost 55,000 People at the Houston Astrodome. So we are very curious to know what prompted you to want to take the stage again and perform in concert? And were you surprised by the response?

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Yes, surprised? Absolutely. By the response, surprised anyone at all came astonished that you guys found out I was playing a little winery in my backyard.

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It's a complicated answer. I guess I I thought I was done. I had. My last concert was a 1980 at the Houston Astrodome for 55,000 people and a lot of farm animals. And I said good night, not knowing would be my last show for almost 40 years. But I found my way to the theater. And I fell in love with first acting in the theater on stage. And then with writing via my experience with playwrights and

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I ended up selling my first pilot while I was acting in a Broadway show a show called American Gothic to CBS. And it kind of led the way to 30 years of doing the job I still have. And when the writers resumed work and stopped striking, I'll go back to doing that. But

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I think, honestly, I had gotten to a point a level of security, where I wasn't concerned that somehow slipping into the old satin pants might jeopardize my writing career. And not that I wear satin pants

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stand up I don't know proven.

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I was I honestly didn't know if anyone would come and I didn't know if I'd like doing it. And I had begun because I people had asked me to write a memoir. And I'd started once or twice and then felt kind of silly doing that. And I didn't know who I was writing to or why it was even writing anything.

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But then I realized that I missed actually engaging with people the experience, I'd had more in the theater, frankly, than I'd had doing concerts because my concerts were just screened with odds, you know.

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So I thought maybe I can kind of hybrid now and then in a in a show that ultimately, it's still evolving, but became more like a theater piece than a, a concert or, you know, an evening of storytelling. And I found a way I think, to hopefully artfully take songs that are known in one context, mostly pop songs,

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and weave them into a narrative that not only felt organic, but was revealing about the songs and it felt authentic to the person I am now and more to the point to the audience. Because I guess anybody can show up and say I want to hear to do run, run and that's fine. But if you can show up in here to do a run, run and and actually come away with an a different experience than you anticipated, and maybe even a deeper experience.

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That's a home run. And that seemed to be the result that you kind of answered my next question, actually, because I can just go all night here.

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We've got no plan.

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The day after that concert, I posted something on Instagram that said, how does a 60 year old man sing teen dream with a straight face to throngs of 50 year old women who used to be 12 because that's exactly what you did. But you did it to incredible success. And I think everybody was moved by by what you did. It was quite a moving experience. But like you said, it was an incredibly unique situation and that we all came to know each other as children, including you, you were only 19 or 20. So we were all meeting in this place that we once occupied long ago as very different people. And so you kind of explained a little bit about how you approached it. Did you think about that aspect of it when you were designing your show? Yes. 100% It's what led me honestly, I I've said this before, but it crystallized for me when I was when I first started doing the show at that little winery. Honestly, that was supposed to be one night. It was supposed to be mostly just friends. It wasn't I didn't really think anyone outside

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the central California coast would show up but people came from all over and many to win

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And we're from Minneapolis.

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To Australia, it was insane. Wow. And I ended up doing four nights. And it was like 150 people each night, but that kind of added up. And then I started getting offers to go play Vegas, which I had had an offer to do in 20 years. And I didn't really want to play Vegas because I wasn't doing like a Vegas show. I was doing

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something more intimate. And, and then COVID, of course, came along. So my timing was impeccable.

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But I, I'm gonna get to your question i, i About 10 years prior.

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Oprah was doing her last season of shows. And

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they called me and asked if I'd come on the show, and they'd asked me over the years to do the show, and I'd never done it. Not that I didn't like the show. And I thought Oprah was great. But I I was never one to do like Memory Lane pieces. I would I would happily go out and do interviews if I had a new show of my own to promote a television show. And that they want to talk about Yeah, what was it like doing concert. So I'm happy to do that. But just to go out and do that didn't feel productive or relevant to what I was doing. But it was Oprah and it was there last season. And my wife said, Oprah has called you are going to meet her smart when the Queen calls you show up at the table. Yeah, she knew. And I want to go to Chicago for the weekend. So frankly, I did it because my wife wanted to do that. And

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I went and they asked if I'd sing on the show, which I hadn't done in eons. So I will get me a little piano, I'll just do kind of what I do on my living room at Christmas, you know, and,

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and I loved it. But most importantly, again, to your question, Kristen, I walked out on the stage.

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And there you all were, except you in your mid 40s, or whatever, a throng of women and some men who had been Hardy Boys fans or whatever. But I suddenly saw this look in the faces of the audience that felt so

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authentic and and pure. I could not be cynical about whatever effect I'd had on these adults when they were kids. And I realized that I'd had the same feeling and felt

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like we'd had a shared experience that was unfinished and needed resolution somehow. And I didn't know that until that moment. And I left there going, wow. There's this whole world of people out there. I thought I was the only one who changed.

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You know what I mean? Yeah, but they've all lived a life and they've been married and maybe divorced, or maybe have 100 kids or no kids. You know what I mean? It I've had three jobs. They have a story to tell me. Yeah, I have a story to tell them. But maybe they can all come together, I can be the catalyst for that. And then they can have an experience independent of me, which is obviously what you three have done. And what I know many, many other people have done. And it's not that the 70s or a perfect time, I think all the soldier, people tend to look at everything through rose colored glasses about the past, I was a young adult in the 70s, late 70s. And it was no more innocent than things are now. But it's viewed that way, because so many young people had it in a sense in them. And so the takeaway is, that was a better time.

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And it may have felt that way.

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But what I also know is, you know, the life I have lived is not

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one of the most gratifying things I hear from a lot of people is thanks for not letting us down. No, and I and I don't know exactly what that means. But I think there's an expectation when you've had the kind of opening act that I had, that you're going to inspire spiral. So things are not going to end up well. Yes. And I'm very grateful. That is not the case with me. Not that it's always been easy. It hasn't at all. But

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I think that they there is some sort of mutual satisfaction and you know, the mutual survivor's story of it all. To your point. I think one thing that that was so successful about our experience at your concerts is that you you honored our experience, our collective experience yours and ours together, not by recreating what happened in the 70s. But by explaining it, and you call it a storytelling experience. And I think that elevated it for so many people, and it was heightened by the fact that we were a room of complete strangers, who had all felt the exact same thing at the exact same moment in our histories and that bonded us together as an audience and then bonded us together with you. We you were only you know, 30 feet away from us on this tiny little stage and it was a moment it was a real moment for a lot of people. Well, I I've now done the show. I don't know how many times maybe 50 times just spread out

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adequately, I've gone out and played much bigger venues than that little winery and played very big venues in Vegas. And and I actually really liked theater theaters 500 to 1000 people feels like the perfect size. I'm basically doing five shows that those kinds of theaters which I did last summer, and I loved, loved, loved. And then I have five sold out nights on off Broadway at 54. Below the old studio 54. The last time I was in there was with Andy Warhol in 1979.

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I played Madison Square Garden, so that'll be Yeah, well, the three of us will be in the audience on June the 23rd 23rd.

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In New York City, very excited to come in. It's yeah, we

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you know, the other thing you mentioned, like the sort of reunion that many of you have. The other thing that's wonderful for me, are

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the people that don't know me from Adam who get dragged along, or the husbands who don't want to,

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you know, forced to come. And they have a great time. And they laugh after sort of surprising. And so you go on this journey, and a lot of people come away being more engaged by the stories and the music. And I'm thrilled, because, you know, I actually wrote the show, originally without any music at all, I was just gonna go out and talk. And, and my friend said, no, no, you can't, they're gonna throw shoes at you.

Unknown Speaker 31:33

Well, I can tell you from the experience Kristin and I had at the winery, we were so surprised at the feeling that we had when we were leaving, and how touched we were and, and then engaging with people that we hadn't known, you know, an hour before and sharing that moment with, with others, it's really brought people together in such a unique way. And we are so grateful for that beyond the podcast, there have just friendships that have been born from this. And I think that I mean, if I were you, I feel really proud of that. It's beyond just to do run, run and 55,000 screaming girls at the Astrodome. And I just think that the trajectory of your career is it's just beautiful, for sure there's a better adjective, but it's really what, what I think a lot of people would wish for, you know, your weren't done. And I think that's one of the messages we like to send to our audience is like we aren't we're in our 50s we didn't know what we were doing when we started this podcast. I mean, we're editing it, we're doing everything. It's just never too late to do that next thing and to grow and learn and explore. And so thank you for being an example of that for us and inspiring us. It's, it's wonderful. And I just piggyback on that, too, because Shawn, what you were saying about how, you know, it wasn't just people showing up to here you seem to do Ron Ron, or my very favorite, that's rock and roll. Can I just tell you two really quick sidenote when we saw you at City winery in Chicago, so that was my favorite song. I can still remember the choreography we did to it. We made it up. And so I was so excited to do my choreography and your guitar string broke. Right at the beginning of that rock and roll. Yeah, I was like, and it just, yeah, well, it it just stopped. Right. Well, come on. I was like, ready to do my choreography and like, I wish I've taught it to them. And, and then they gave you a new guitar. But then I maybe for time you went into a new song. And I was like, wait.

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A minute request to you is Shaun Cassidy is on June. Don't do that again. Next June 23 at 54 below. There better be the fool that's rock and roll. Just kidding. There will be there will also be a full band. And this is something because I've done it now. Like three different ways. I started with the full band, six feet side of sax player as well. And then I did it with a trio.

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My nephew Cole Cassidy plays guitar and Kathleen seek was a extraordinary singer. A good friend goes with us and and I love doing the trio it felt right again in the smaller places. But the only songs that I feel get a little shortchanged by that are the big rock songs like that rock and roll and hey, Dini in particular. So I'm really excited to do because it's sort of like the New York show is like, teared, it sort of starts small and the trio and then the last like five songs are full band and it's gonna be really fun. So what I'm hearing is one we do get to give some sweat to the boys in the band and to I get to break out my choreography. Yeah. And to Michelle gets to break out of choreography. Our Y has been to bring connection right and, and to connect, who we were back then to who we are now and what I'm hearing you say

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Is that you're very thoughtful about that now in your shows,

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making that that connection from then to now, through the storytelling, and I think that is just we just we think that's, it's, it's, it's a magic trick. Honestly, it's it's a

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it's a time machine. And, but but

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if you're 20, and you come to the show, you don't need to have been there in 1978, you really don't, because one of the benefits for that 20 year old is watching the audience. They actually get a show, independent of my show,

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because they're seeing something they may have heard about. And I remember like I talked about Ricky Nelson and my show, because when I was a little kid, Ricky's before my time, he was like the 50s. But like the reruns of Ozzie and Harriet were on and, and Rick and Elvis had been kind of the godfathers while you go to Frank Sinatra, but you know, of the teen idol thing that Ricky in particular, because he had a television show, and was from a family of entertainers, a lot of people when I came along, said, Ricky Nelson, now, and, and Rick ended up being on the Hardy Boys.

Unknown Speaker 36:15

I didn't know that. Yeah. And I talked to him, because I was sort of at the height of all that. And he was, you know, went to a garden party trying to get some credibility as an adult musician, and he was in transition that way. And Rick was a great musician with a great band, and really fully deserving of everything beyond his teen idol stuff. And he was as big as they come on that front.

Unknown Speaker 36:41

But he was very reflective. And he was in that transition period of like, uncertainty about how do I find that audience again, and a new one who will let me do something beyond some people call me a teenage idol, which I saved for eight seconds in the show, and then talk about him. And and, you know, the irony of that song, of course, is that it's about how lonely poor little teen idols are. And I'm here to tell you, there's a lot of stuff with a teen idol, that loneliness is not part of.

Unknown Speaker 37:17

Anyway, if you want

Unknown Speaker 37:20

the, the,

Unknown Speaker 37:22

the, I think the why I'm here to tell this story, honestly, is because I got to watch him. And more to the point, David, in my life, and my parents, my father was a matinee idol on Broadway, and he and my mother was an Academy Award winner at 25. So I got to see all of the highs and lows and the holes that film that, that same fills and more importantly, the holes that it does not fill. And keep it in perspective, I think, and I'm a writer, so I was always looking at it like a journalist. Even as I was going through it. I was like, Oh, this would be an interesting experience for this 18 year old kid that I'm watching, objectively. I remember feeling that way. Oh, God, that is so interesting. Okay, first sidenote, I'm named after Ricky Nelson's wife, Kristen. Oh, wow. Wow. My parents were Ozzie and Harriet fans, and my mom was a Ricky Nelson fan. And then here comes Kristen Nelson, and Kristen Nelson. So for a bit to voylla as they say.

Unknown Speaker 38:32

But I have always wondered from the moment that I learned that David Cassidy was your half brother. So we're talking in 1977, or 78. I always wondered how it was that you made the decision to jump into that shark infested pool. After watching your brother go through his experience. I just wondered how that decision making process went. I don't think it was as much a decision as

Unknown Speaker 38:58

there was like a train

Unknown Speaker 39:01

pushing me. I mean, it was just there. I mean,

Unknown Speaker 39:05

I am not a performer by nature. I really am a writer. I'm way more internal and introverted. I can pretend I can get on stage and be very comfortable, but it's not my I don't need it. And most performers really do need it. A David needed and my father needed. My mom doesn't. I'm more like her. But

Unknown Speaker 39:29

I really think I was tired of being known as somebody's brother, somebody's son. And people were going you could do it. You're cute kid. You can sing you can do it. You can do it. Yeah, I can really you're gonna make it that easy for me. I can sign a record contract at 16. Yes. And I can get a television show and my second audition. Yes. Well, I guess I should do this. But I didn't have any great passion to do it. I love songwriting. And I like to sing. I didn't particularly love all the songs I've written.

Unknown Speaker 40:00

Were to at 18. But they weren't all my choice, but somewhere and the ones that were I like now, and the ones I got to write I still like, I think Teen Dreams a good song, you know? So.

Unknown Speaker 40:12

But

Unknown Speaker 40:14

I honestly think, Okay, I'm just gonna get the monkey off my back, I'm going to become famous. People will stop calling me David's brother, surely son, and then I'll figure out what I want to do with my life. How many years of therapy did it take for you to realize

Unknown Speaker 40:31

I really

Unknown Speaker 40:34

wasn't what I needed to work really evolved for maybe an 1819 year I was an old 18 year old is very old, I'm much younger now

Unknown Speaker 40:45

really was.

Unknown Speaker 40:48

And you know, my show, which again keeps changing the show you'll see in New York is not the same show you saw

Unknown Speaker 40:54

at the winery or saw in Chicago, whatever

Unknown Speaker 40:59

I have is a big new section about my dad, which I kind of glossed over a bit in the early ones, honestly, because if you're all writers, you know, you know, you sort of dance around the stuff that might be the most painful or scary, and ultimately becomes the most fulfilling part when you finally get there. And when you you know when you really go Long Day's Journey and tonight and deal with your family. And I read about family and everything I've ever written, I just disguise it. But

Unknown Speaker 41:30

when you're actually talking about the real people, you and I talked about David, which was a very moving part of the previous show, and now I have a big section about my mother as well. And now my father, which I haven't done yet, but and it's going to be

Unknown Speaker 41:45

tough and funny. My father was very, very funny, but my father was complicated, and it was dark, often scary, and more charismatic than anyone I've ever known. And I got more good stuff from him weirdly than even I think my mother, but my mother is why I'm alive.

Unknown Speaker 42:03

Really? Yeah. You know, I loved the show we saw in Chicago. That's the only one I've seen Carolyn and Kristen. Well, Kristen, how many shows have you seen several right because you went through. But I kept having to bring people. Yeah, right. Like you got to see this. One thing I loved is when you sang a song from I believe it was from Music Man. Wasn't that you saying and Karis. It was from carousel? Yes. I love you. Yeah, yes, yes. And then it was at the show that next night we weren't at but we saw this on social media that you called your mom on stage. And it was adorable. But we I just I get such a kick out of her and her martinis. And she just seems like quite a lovely and wonderful person. She is really lovely. She's gotten lovelier in her old age. She's really, yeah, she's,

Unknown Speaker 42:57

I guess, you can go either way. As you get older, you become a grumpy old man or, you know, the light of the world just sort of shines through. And that's the way she is now. She's just, she's, she's. I talked her every day. And whenever I call like, Hey, Mom, how you doing? Great. What are you doing? I don't know. sitting watching TV going to have lunch? You want to have lunch? Okay, sounds fun. Great. That's wonderful. Where do you want to go? That's what she's like, all the time now. And and I said, Do you miss working? No. I worked for 140 years. You know?

Unknown Speaker 43:37

She loves just living life and you know, seeing her kids and our grandkids. And she's also I mean, she's gonna be 90, and she's beloved by the world. It's not a bad way to turn. That is absolutely right. It's right. And she's a roll on by all of us. Well, when I was a small child, I can't tell you how many times I watched Oklahoma and you know, news, I was a very small child. And you think about how she's crossed just generations of people to this day, my daughters who were in theater, adore her. You know, they're 22 and 27. And they know who she is. I mean, you say her name and they can tell you what role she's played. So yes, that's got to be just kind of a lot.

Unknown Speaker 44:24

Well, that's a gift for you that people have been fortunate that your mother is beloved. Right? What a gift. It's a gift for our whole family and for her grandchildren. We took Turner Classic Movies, had a film festival grounds Chinese man's Chinese, and they were celebrating the 100th anniversary of Warner Brothers and they called me and they said, would your mom come out? We want to screen The Music Man had the theater, you know? And I said she might but I said I guarantee you the way to get her to come is invite all her grandchildren because they've never had the

Unknown Speaker 45:00

experience of watching their grandmother on a big screen.

Unknown Speaker 45:04

And so 11 of her grandchildren

Unknown Speaker 45:08

came down

Unknown Speaker 45:10

to Mann's Chinese Theater and we brought mom and we watched the music man and I sat next to her. And she's like 28 and she's quite pregnant with my brother Patrick and the movie.

Unknown Speaker 45:23

And they is actually a funny story. They, she went to the director Martin d'acosta, just before they started shooting, you said I just found out I'm like, three months, four months pregnant. How are we going to get through this? He said, Don't worry, you're in big bustle things. And we'll shoot you behind tables. And, and they did and if you watch the movie, you can see you know, she's Marian the librarian behind the desk. But at the end, famous footbridge scene where they were bills on the

Unknown Speaker 45:50

title that was, you know, and she kisses, Robert Preston. Apparently, Patrick just kicked the hell out of Robert Preston in that moment.

Unknown Speaker 46:00

Anyway, gotta have just watched that I never for a minute occurred to me that like, Oh, she's looking at? Well,

Unknown Speaker 46:09

my mother had the 24 inch waist. So as big as she got so big, but

Unknown Speaker 46:15

anyway, but the experience again, the shared experience, bridge building experience we're talking about, of being able to watch your grandmother, in a movie made 60 years ago that I was on the set of when I was three, four years old riding my bicycle with Rodney Howard.

Unknown Speaker 46:35

Oh, it just it's time probably. Well, there's, yeah, there's that connection. And, and, you know, we talk, like I said, we talk about that a lot. We talk about the role nostalgia plays in people's lives. Like we said, we started this podcast during the pandemic, when people were searching for something to make them feel better. And really over the past two and a half years, we've found that reminiscing about all these things, like Kristin said earlier that we all experienced, at the same time, in very formative years have really just brought people unbridled joy and that connection, and has even helped us get through some really tough times. And you and your music. Definitely, definitely tap into that for so many people. So how rewarding is that to you? 46 years later, to know that that like right now, your music from back then is helping people get through tough times. It's hugely rewarding. It's

Unknown Speaker 47:34

you talked about like, it's never too late or whatever.

Unknown Speaker 47:38

To do it again, I'm doing something I've never done before. This isn't again, it's a new experience. And it's probably the most gratifying experience. I mean, I've had similar experiences when I write an episode of television, or I created a show that people love. New Amsterdam certainly was a very moving experience for a lot of people I didn't create the show is created by David shoulder, good pal of mine. But I was able to write a lot of the episodes and worked on all of them and and saw how important that show was through the pandemic. What was a, you know, a fictional show became almost a documentary if you're writing about Bellevue Hospital, which is the largest public hospital in the country, but epicenter of COVID, in this country, when when COVID happened. And that was an important experience for the writing staff to be able to share our fears, hopes, dreams, concerns, neuroses, and you know, write them through the characters to a certain extent.

Unknown Speaker 48:41

Maybe it's analogous, being able to go out now, at 64 When I hadn't been out on the road since I was 21. And

Unknown Speaker 48:50

talk to people and, yes, play them a song that most will probably know. But more importantly, just engage with them and say, Here we are, and life is good. And frankly, the stuff you're dystopic about is all here right now to you're just not seeing it necessarily, because you're either watching too much news or being misled that the world is a horrible place. The world is a better place now than it was in the 70s. It really is. You just hear about more bad things. My husband says that all the time. No, but it's true. I mean, I you know, the the evening news in Los Angeles did not lead with the worst thing that happened in Kansas in 1978. It led with what was happening in Los Angeles and if something bad happened, you heard about it, but something that didn't happen you were being bombarded with bad. Now you are bombarded with bad 24/7 on cable news, and we can I'm not a fan of any of the shows. I don't care left, right center. They're all selling drama, and I know the difference because that's what I do for a living.

Unknown Speaker 49:55

So that's why it feels like today is worse than yesterday. And that's why

Unknown Speaker 50:00

There is this need for nostalgia I think my opinion. No, but

Unknown Speaker 50:06

I part of my message too is embrace today. It's really beautiful. Go out and look at the trees. They're still here. And they're really nice. And they were nice in the 70s. And they're still really nice. Some of them are even nicer. Honest to goodness, that is. That's it in a nutshell. You guys that should be on one of our greeting cards. And we can put Shaun Cassidy on we saw like pop we designed little pop culture greeting cards go out and look at the trees. They're still here. And they're still lovely. Shaun Cassidy. I love it. There's a I think the book is called Uncommon Ground. You know this book? Yeah, that sounds familiar. Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's the title and maybe getting it wrong. But somebody showed me a diagram from it. You know, one thing that is different now, unfortunately, is our country is certainly more divided than it was then. And I hate that. Again, I think we've been misled. I think we've been forced to take sides. And I just, I think fear is has been the driving factor and drama. But this book had this great thing, which is something again, you guys are doing like your your, let's say a yellow person, and you have these beliefs, and you're a blue person and you have these beliefs. But when you actually find a common ground, you find something, something you have in common, we all have more in common than we have different for sure. You are no longer yellow or blue, you're now green, because yellow and blue makes green. And if you can live in the green, that's where the love is. And that is where I feel also like this idea of nostalgia and what you guys are doing and a bit of what I'm doing in the show lives. It's not just I miss the Easy Bake oven I had when I was five. Right? By the way, I had an easy bake. But

Unknown Speaker 51:56

were you I was like, really? You don't want to talk a truck? No, I like those two. But I'd like to also creative like to cook things. Brownies.

Unknown Speaker 52:06

But you know what I'm saying? It's like that feeling hasn't gone? Yeah. But we do forget things. I reminded of things all the time, like Kid things. You I follow your, your podcast on Instagram, and I see pictures of stuff you put it Oh, I forgot about that thing. Yeah. And that's what's so fun to is because we we've created a community. I mean, there are people that have become friends outside of us who have just commented back and forth, because they have this shared. Oh my gosh, I just remember the Easy Bake oven to and I bake brownies? Well, so did I with my mom, and they get in these conversations. And that is so rewarding for us. And also I think we're green on on our account and our podcast, because you know, our biggest arguments on here are like, you know, Shaun Cassidy or Leif Garrett, and people are like trying to take sides on that.

Unknown Speaker 53:01

Trust me, yes, I know who you're gonna vote for.

Unknown Speaker 53:06

But you know, it's just a place where we don't get into all that other stuff. And we find this common ground where we all like Kristin said earlier, we're experiencing the same things at the same time. And that can bring us together and bring such joy. And so that's been a real eye on that place of love. Yeah, yes.

Unknown Speaker 53:25

So as you know, you wholeheartedly that's why I'm here. Thank you so much. That means it means so much to us truly, it does, it is very meaningful, because on the surface, it could look like what we're doing is something frivolous, but we know that there's meaning under underlying the entire thing. You're talking to a guy who works out in pants on stage. I understand. I understand the fear of being made to look frivolous.

Unknown Speaker 53:53

Well, and that and that entire concept, I'm running into that with my book, which we're going to get to in a second when I tell people what it's about people can jump to conclusions and think that this is a frivolous topic. And I'm like read the book. This is not a frivolous topic. This is about the the process of growing up. So as you know,

Unknown Speaker 54:13

I have a book coming out this July called worldwide crush, which is a novel about the first crush experience which is rarely on somebody that you've met in real life your first crush is generally somebody you met on TV or the radio. And the reason you know this is because I've been quasi stalking you to make sure that this that you know that this book, I have the FBI standing by just in case she's okay.

Unknown Speaker 54:39

She's okay. But you can't see right now as Christians being led away in handcuffs.

Unknown Speaker 54:45

Finally they got her they'll just tell them you'll do the podcast that's what we do.

Unknown Speaker 54:51

Okay here on the floor like don't just keep her talking, talking.

Unknown Speaker 54:59

But it was just it was very

Unknown Speaker 55:00

important for me that you knew that this book became an exploration of my own first crush experience on one Shaun Cassidy, because that is a pivotal experience for most people. So when people read the descriptions of this completely fictional teen heartthrob in the book, he sounds an awful lot like Shaun Cassidy. So are my version of Shaun Cassidy, because of course, I made him up in my imagination, right? So

Unknown Speaker 55:27

yeah, sounds like

Unknown Speaker 55:29

the perfect person. I'm just wondering, because I've been caused by stalking you and throwing this in this book at you all the time. How does that make you feel to know that a novel has grown out of the experience that one person had in experiencing you?

Unknown Speaker 55:46

It's, it's lovely. Again, I talked about this in the song I wrote teen Dream, which I recorded. And when I put it on my album, everybody thought I was writing about me and my own experience, but I was actually writing about the audience.

Unknown Speaker 56:18

Their shared experience and the projection, their shared projection on this person who just happened to be there. I just happened to show up at that moment in time when this little generation of people were looking for a person, you know, I think, and

Unknown Speaker 56:35

you didn't know who I was, right, you know, but you had an idea. And you put all your stuff and you talk to your girlfriend's about it. And you've shared posters about that kid, and, and there is beauty in that. And, again, I have four daughters, so I can look at that experience through their eyes when they've projected that ceiling on another kid, or a band or whatever. And

Unknown Speaker 57:03

I think it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's to be protected and honored and cherished.

Unknown Speaker 57:09

I actually get emotional talking about it. And it's so important. Kristin, is also a crush ologists. That's not a made up word. That's true. No, she's studied crushes and the importance of them. And we've had, I mean, we've probably had three or we've actually talked to someone who is a professor of these parasocial relationships, and because we do talk on our podcast, a lot about crushes, and, and our first crushes, and how important they are and why they're important. And so why was it important for people to have posters of Shaun Cassidy, or David Cassidy, or Leif Garrett or whoever it was on their walls, it's so important in the development of children. And it's got to just be kind of a weird thing to think that you were the, the recipient of that. But at the same time, we know and you know, from being the father of girls, and we all have children who have gone through crushes, celebrity crushes. We honor that here. Like you said, you get emotional about it, we get that because it's that important to us to those crushes are, but it's if you're an 18 or 21 year old, man.

Unknown Speaker 58:24

And you've got 10 year old or 12 year old fans, it's easy to go this is crazy. And I never did that. I don't that's that is sort of the mystery to me is like why did my despite silly and stupid I want to be

Unknown Speaker 58:38

taken seriously or whatever. I think it's because I watched David and David was tortured by that David never really enjoyed his success because he wanted to be Jimi Hendrix or something. Yeah, but like, Dude, you're on a, you know, show or your mom's playing the tambourine. They're not going to mistake you for Eric Clapton. So

Unknown Speaker 58:59

enjoy it. And, you know, hopefully transcend it later, you know, incredibly mature, 18 year old, my God. Again, I got to go to school. The school of watching people deal with fame in different ways. And, yeah, and if it wasn't a novel experience in my house, you know, if everybody's an electrician and you decide to go into electrician land, nobody's gonna go hey, that's amazing. What a special person you are.

Unknown Speaker 59:31

Good for you. You can fix a fuse. So you mentioned the that your girls had had this same experience and and I'm very my wife had the same experience, but not with me.

Unknown Speaker 59:47

Yeah, that would be a novel right there.

Unknown Speaker 59:50

I wonder what is that? What is that like to witness it from the other side? Who was it that your girls were crushing on? What was it like for them to have a father who had been through

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

Through this I mean, that's very complicated.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:03

Yeah, it's complicated. It's, it's, it's funny, too. I mean, I talked about that in my show, you have to understand my kids, all my kids, none of them, I stopped performing before. Well, before any of them were born. And none of them ever saw me, saw me sing at the piano in the living room, but never on stage.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:26

None of them. And so in 2019, when I have four kids living at home, who are under 15, two of them are girls.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:37

And I say, I'm gonna, like, put on my rockstar outfit, you go out and say, they're like, Dad, let's be having a nervous breakdown.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:45

They truly think I'm, I've lost my mind. I'm a guy that goes to an office, I write television shows, some of which they see some of which they don't. They don't quite get what that is. But now I'm going out. And suddenly, I'm going to be like, you know, in their view, pretend to be Justin Bieber. And when adults come up, and then say, You don't understand your father was Justin Bieber. They're like, Oh, come on. That old guy. It's not possible.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:15

So that's weird. And I have empathy for that weird experience on their hand. And, look, I brought my sons my boys are like, this is weird and creepy, and why those ladies screaming? But then like my son, hey, wait a second. We could sell some T shirts here. And they start working the t shirt can get concession and then like kids are like, can we make T shirts of us and sell them?

Unknown Speaker 1:01:43

My now 18 year old son who is going off to college to get a business degree. What's a Harvard MBA? No kidding. Wow, he's like, I'm gonna make T shirts.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:54

Ray is a smart boy. Yeah, yes, he is.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:58

So it again, you know, I grew up watching my parents kiss other people who weren't my parents on Broadway and in the movies. And I'd be sitting with my mother watching her making out with Jimmy Stewart or

Unknown Speaker 1:02:13

Marlon Brando.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:15

And what is what's going on mom? And she's Oh, it's just acting.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:22

I don't know if it's just acting. Got Cassidy. It was not just acting.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:29

Right, right. Right. So it's a weird life, but it's mine. Yeah. Perfect. Well, we want to be mindful of your time as well. So I don't know what hard stop you have. But Kristen, I'm gonna keep talking. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:46

Well, I really want to i This is a very simple question, but I've thought about it for a long time. And I've always wanted to know, now that your kids do know about this past of yours. Do they have favorite songs of yours? Just Tracy have a favorite song of yours? I have no idea. He's shaking his head listeners. He's just shaking his head. Nope. I've never heard Tracy has never said Oh, I love that. Hey, they're lonely girl. She'd never ever. That's not the way she is. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah. She's kind of embarrassed. I think frankly, by all this.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:18

She's a very practical woman.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:21

I mean, even what her crush was one of those guys in one of those boy bands.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:28

A little one. I can't remember. Oh, Anson Hansen. No, I was thinking of like New Kids on the Block or one of those new kids are insane. 98 or

Unknown Speaker 1:03:39

one of those? Yeah, back there all 10 years after me, I think but yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:46

Jordan, I know justice.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:49

Night. Time Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:54

Anyway, I don't

Unknown Speaker 1:03:56

change their mind. You know, it might change their mind if I could teach them the choreography to that's rock and roll. Because I was nine. Well, I have video of it. You know what, I'm next time I post it on. No, no, you have film. You don't? Oh, yes, it is film. It's on my it's hilarious. I'm in a black leotard. I'm in third grade. I have like a little Tony toenail haircut. And I'm just shaking, because Okay, one thing that you guys I know our listeners would be really sad if I didn't get a chance to tell Shaun Cassidy what you guys know. I'm about to tell him. Since episode one. I've mentioned it episode one and probably five or six times in the past 120 episodes. I don't know if you knew this Shaun Cassidy but you are actually my brother in law. I could not I know. Did you know that? I was your sister in law. I couldn't crush on you when I was in third grade because my you're my sister's crush. The little sister is absolutely not allowed to crush on that same person. She would rip out all the Parker Stevenson posters and give them to me. So if you want to invite me for you and I can't family Christmas

Unknown Speaker 1:05:00

Anything I mean, I, by the way, I'm certain that I am, you know, every little sister, you know, the oldest sister like David, and then, you know, you can't have him. Okay, how about this one? Yeah, no, I don't even get that. I don't even have that.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:13

Okay, first and foremost, you are a writer. And a storyteller, as you've said, and your most successful TV show has just ended his five year run on NBC, and then began a whole new life on Netflix quite successfully, that of course, being New Amsterdam, the future of TV is changing. And this is something that we talk about quite a lot. The difference between streaming and live TV, how do you feel about streaming versus live TV? And what role do you want to play in the future of TV? Oh, by live TV, I assume you mean network TV? Or TV? Yes. But we can watch live? Yes.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:52

I think that streaming is definitely not the future. It's the present. And

Unknown Speaker 1:06:00

I think that the,

Unknown Speaker 1:06:02

the model has so dramatically changed. And the deal that the writers have is based on the old model. So that's why there's a strike and you know, I have friends on all sides of this. So I don't take any of it personally, I view it all as business and I want a fair deal for my brethren in the Writers Guild, for sure.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:24

But I don't think the people on the other side are evil. I just think that they're, you know, they have accountants who are trying to make as much money as possible.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:35

That said, I think that the future is absolutely streaming and cable and even cable is antiquated now. I mean, it's

Unknown Speaker 1:06:43

and the network's

Unknown Speaker 1:06:46

you know, New Amsterdam. Again, I didn't create it, but it was probably the most down the middle of show I've worked on.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:54

And yet, ironically, it got cancelled by NBC sold to Netflix. And it became the biggest show in the world on Netflix, number one show on Netflix for a month. If you're the number one show on Netflix, you're the number one show in the world, more eyeballs, any any other place now.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:11

Which was great, the very gratifying for everybody involved. i i The thing I love about the way television has changed is when I started American Gothic was a very dark antihero led serialized show, which was the antithesis of what they wanted on CBS.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:34

You know, there's a reason Dick Wolf and law and order and all of its franchises have been so successful because it is a formula in the best sense that it's easy to replicate week after week after week after week, you don't need to have seen any law in order to tune into one and you can be engaged by that story. In the case of streaming shows, 98% of them are serialized, which is how I like to write I like to write novels in the form of TV. You know, Charles Dickens favorite writer. So

Unknown Speaker 1:08:06

that's how he sold books. You got to see a chapter every week in the magazine, you know.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:13

But the but the the model, then what they would preach to us at the studios is that you can't make money with that because they don't rerun. You can't run them out of order was all about how is it going to play in Budapest, you know, after it's aired on CBS. And I was like, I don't know how to just write those closed ended things. They feel so formulaic in a bad way and contrived. And also my dirty little secret, which I am not proud of, because it it didn't help me with writing statuses. When I started writing, I didn't outline I just had a kind of an idea of where I knew I wanted the characters to go. But I didn't even really know the characters until I started writing. And once I found out who the characters were, I couldn't live with an outline because if I'd written an outline in a vacuum, and the end of Act Two, it says they go and they rob a bank. Like once I started writing, I get to know the characters. They don't want to go to a bank, I they want to go to a bar or they want to go to amusement park. I can't take them to a bank. But it says on the outline that they robbed the bank at the end of Act Two says the network executive I said yeah, sorry, but I know you like an outline because you'd like to know, let's have some level of security that the writer is going to, you know, turn in something worthwhile. But that's not how I write.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:28

Which is terrible though because if you're a showrunner you can't tell the writing staff just do it like me just make it up as you go along.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:36

Doesn't really fly. So I've learned now, but my again, dirty little secret is when I'm selling a script or selling a pilot, and they want an outline, because they always do.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:48

I go off and I write the script, and then I turn it into an outline that I handed you.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:54

Okay. You do hear a lot of authors that do that that they

Unknown Speaker 1:10:00

They say when they start their novel, they start with these characters and they don't know where the story's going. They don't know how it's going to end at the beginning because the characters almost have to tell them. It's great and and it's the most organic storytelling because the author is also the audience. You're on the ride, and you're writing yourself into a corner that you don't necessarily know how you gonna get out of it. You may have an idea, you know, Northwest Northwest, Hitchcock knew he wanted them on the face of Mount Rushmore to chase scene at the end. And Ernest Lamanna wrote that script basically wrote a chase sequence and then started a script to get them to Mount Rushmore

Unknown Speaker 1:10:35

old analogy old example but

Unknown Speaker 1:10:38

I do that now too. I'll get I'll get the seat at something. Again, it's always about family usually some hidden version of my own or my own experiences.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:48

Do you ever see a show called invasion I worked on I created the show called invasion was on after last. I have a lot of these I call them canceled quickly called hits on my resume. And evasion is one of them. But it was a very well received show critically it was on for a season and it was about you know, again, sold as invasion in the Everglades undercover of a hurricane things come and they bury themselves in the Everglades. And they come out and start doing like body snatching things,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:18

which is a very commercial way to sell it. But you know, for what I was writing about was the invasion of a new father in my children's house, you've got divorced houses, and co parenting and suddenly there's this new interloper coming in to parent your kids and experience. Oh, I've had

Unknown Speaker 1:11:37

God, I love this. So. So you take, but I use this analogy a lot to like, when you're selling a show, you do not lead with art. You did not go in and tell the executives, this is going to be Hamlet, it's going to be the most extraordinary piece of art history you will ever know. It's a show about a shark that eats people in the ocean. It's called JAWS. Okay, but even Jaws is not just a stone on a shark. But it's people in the ocean. That's what they put on the poster. That's how they got people into the theater. It's a show about a family coming to a new place a new sheriff, trying to figure out what the rules are of this place a mayor who's obviously not really to be trusted. And he's got to save his family. He's got to protect his son. That's a very primal thing to be able to write. But you don't put that on the poster. Right? Yeah. Anyway, I got way more out of that answer than I anticipated. Fascinating. Yeah, always asked me. And part of it is because I aspire to be an outliner. And I have written so many outlines, and I have not followed any of them. Good. That means they're bad. I mean, the outline is bad. It just means that it's not organic to the story you discover that you're telling. That's right. And then the story comes to me like a movie in front of my forehead. I'm just writing it down. I'm just writing it down. That's when you take off. That's it. Yeah, you know, I've got an idea for a new show that I'm really, really excited about it. But only because I've got like a scene. And that's usually how my things like this scene is a launchpad for five year television series. In my brain. I don't know what it is yet. I don't know who the characters are. But I I'm on to something. And once I can get like five pages, 10 pages in. I'm done making stuff up. Because I got characters now are telling me just get in the car and we'll drive. Let's go listen, you just just listened to them. Yeah, I used to be an actor, and I have a musical ear or whatever, you know. So I'm pretty good with dialog, and I can just go and I can go into places. I don't know. I'm going and then when I go there, what am I going to do? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:49

Vince Gilligan? I was told on Breaking Bad. would not write the first or the second idea the writers room had, like for what are we going to do with Walter White? He's going to do this. Okay. Put that on the board that throw that away. What What's another thing he could do here? Oh,

Unknown Speaker 1:14:07

but this third, third one. Let's try that one. Because that's not the first one that comes to you. So it won't be the first one that comes to the audience. Yeah. All right. Sorry. Talking to three riders. I didn't know you.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:18

I hate the easy explanation that

Unknown Speaker 1:14:21

something will happen to be like too easy, right? Lazy. They didn't eat a book when that happened. Sometimes it's just like, Yeah, John is your new show your new idea about three women and their mid 50s who started pop culture podcast.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:37

One of them kills the other one, maybe

Unknown Speaker 1:14:39

some days and then one of them stops and then one of them gets arrested for stalking her

Unknown Speaker 1:14:47

first crush from 77

Unknown Speaker 1:14:50

Can I be the murderer? I want to

Unknown Speaker 1:14:53

I'm feeling really murdery

Unknown Speaker 1:14:58

I'm gonna be the murderer. Here.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:00

I thought we'd be talking about Barbies and Slinkys.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:07

Well, I do have one question that I've posed to so many people, and you're the perfect person to ask. So with the different ways that TV shows can now be delivered in terms of sometimes the whole season drops on one day. And so you can just binge the whole thing.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:24

What do writers write differently for

Unknown Speaker 1:15:27

a show like that, versus a show where you're gonna have to wait a week until the next thing happens?

Unknown Speaker 1:15:34

Can Is there a different mindset? Or is it the same? Would you write the same way? Like each episode? I think there was less dependency on the hook at the end of the episode, you know, but you'd every commercial break, you'd have some perils of Pauline tied to the train track, and here comes a trace. And a lot of them were very contrived. And now, since most of the shows don't have commercials,

Unknown Speaker 1:16:00

you don't have to do that.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:03

But usually, I mean, Breaking Bad again, being a great example.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:09

At the end of the episode, there'd be something you'd want to come back for because even though like New Amsterdam, written for network and then sold to Netflix, that first two seasons were dumped on Netflix, and people watched the in a weekend. Yeah. Which was great, because the show was serialized, and they were rewarded for things we'd set up in episode three and paid off in Episode 17. They were rewarded in an afternoon, because it's fresh in their mind, you know, but hopefully that stuff still holds, you know, in the network model to the to your question, I don't know really, that

Unknown Speaker 1:16:46

you write differently, you still have to each episode have to have its own engine and be of a piece. And you're but you are platforming future episodes, and maybe cliffhanging things. Sure, because it's really only Netflix that dumps it all at once, I think because I know like, I my husband and I are huge fans have yellow jackets, and they do a really good job right now. Because it's a week you have to wait the next week. And we we are so tempted to say, let's wait till all the yellow jackets are released. And then we can watch them all boom, boom, boom. But we've gone back to that old school viewing because they do kind of end with not a cliffhanger, but something that you're kind of going what just happened. And so we love watching it every Friday night, because then we have to wait. I think there was something that and we've talked about this before on the show, there is something that is lost when you get everything that you want whenever whenever you want it as quickly as you want it. There is some joy that comes from the anticipation of waiting. And there's also a collective nature to we all watch this thing at the same time experience. It's a shared experience. We have lost the watercooler moment and we rectify the watercooler moment when okay, this is where Kristen dropped the biggest spoiler about succession, and I am cutting it out because I don't want her to ruin it for you. Like she did for me. And now I'd say, Boy, just kidding. Spoiler No, I've seen she's gonna be the one that's murdered. She's gonna be the one that has

Unknown Speaker 1:18:20

I've been waiting for Andy. That's okay. I

Unknown Speaker 1:18:24

take this part of the episode to

Unknown Speaker 1:18:29

Shai Cassidy.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:32

Why don't we do that all the time. I always called David Samer. Yeah, Chris crack is

Unknown Speaker 1:18:37

it

Unknown Speaker 1:18:40

we just asked him and he said okay.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:46

Okay, can we just really confused? Well, he was very, like, ad he was hilarious. And so gracious and a hoot. And we love them to death. But have Are you watching succession? And did Kristen just spoil that for you? Because we really need to know. Oh, I have watched succession. I've not watched it. I probably have not seen that episode that I think I knew about that. Because you're not the first whistleblower I've crossed.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:13

Because everybody showed up and was like, oh my god, did you see succession last night, it was the first time that had happened to me since like Fonzie jumping the shark shots. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:23

It's, it's interesting. They're like, there's the the, you know, like, white lotus Was that like a year ago and they they catch fire, like a summer novel? Like everybody's reading The Exorcist, you know, and

Unknown Speaker 1:19:36

it wasn't doing this at all. I, I hadn't watched the show since Gunsmoke. until like two years ago. I swear. I wasn't watching television. Because I was making television for so long. And I like I didn't see the Soprano's until like two months ago. I just missed it. Because I wasn't I didn't I didn't want to watch it. I was watching TV and editing.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:58

TV writer and you're not watching

Unknown Speaker 1:20:00

In television, I felt I actually felt bad because what happened was I get in the writers room and they'd be writers 20 years younger than me. And all of their, you know, the oldest show they'd ever seen was friends. So, right. So I was that was like, you know, the birth of showbusiness.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:17

And but I realized, Oh, those are the Seminole shows for them. And those are, what their references are going to be. So I realized I better watch these. And now I do watch a lot of the new ones when they come on. I don't watch the whole series, but I'll watch like, I've seen five episodes of secession. I thought it was great. I get why people are excited about it. Why Lotus? I did watch the whole thing because it was my kind of thing. Yeah. Well, Shawn, we like to have a little fun with our guests. And we always play some sort of a game. So we'd like to ask you some hard hitting questions from a 1978 interview. You did in this respective news source called, here it is teen fever.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:01

It's teen fever. And we'd like to invest in that operation.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:07

We would like to see if you can match the answers you gave as a newly turned 20 year old. Here's the article.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:14

A few other questions. Okay. So I'm going to ask you the question and see if you know what you said. How old did you say you were when you got your first kiss?

Unknown Speaker 1:21:28

Seven.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:30

You were three.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:32

Wow. Yeah. We also like to do this and no.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:38

We also always do these games with celebrities who if the if the person actually answered these questions, or if the publicist did,

Unknown Speaker 1:21:47

at 20 years old, what did you say your favorite drink? Was?

Unknown Speaker 1:21:53

It okay, if you get them wrong. Alcohol drinker. No, I will give you a hint. It's not alcohol.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:01

You were you were 12 I mean, it'd be like sparkling water like it's in 1970. He said that that's exactly what it says. So it sounds so like NUMA Rishi but bougie. They used to Parker and I, for some reason, Perrier was like a new thing. Yeah, like sparkling water was like a really fancy European. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And they somehow the studio must have had to deal with period because that's all they would give us on the set. We'd be walking around. Like we'd finish a scene like hang gliding or you know, jumping off a cliff, and they'd put a parry and, and I remember I'd see these pictures of me on the set and like costume holding a period. I felt so ridiculous. But that's what we drank like.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:46

Well, there you go. You your memory. Yeah. Okay. They asked you when you were 20 What was your nickname when you were 14? Ziggy, it was a GI

Unknown Speaker 1:22:58

Z.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:00

To a lot of people. Did you start? Ziggy like a cartoon character?

Unknown Speaker 1:23:04

I'm looking for the boots. I started as good. We're helping the cartoon character. Well, I was a big fan of Bowie's before most people knew who Bowie was because I went to this club, a lot called Rodney being in homers, English disco.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:20

Under aged, underage everywhere I went, but he would play all of these British import records. So I heard very, very early David Bowie songs and bought Ziggy Stardust and the spiders from Mars and I all my friends were like dancing into the Eagles and like, California hippie music. I love the Eagles. But you know, yeah, but I was like in glam rock was like a thing like T Rex and I saw Rocky Horror Show live with Tim Curry and meatloaf at the Roxy about 20 times. Oh, I just go and go and go. I loved it.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:55

window in time where boys straight boys put on makeup to meet girls. You know? Because it was like, the thing and Bowie was kind of the prince of that. And all again, I didn't know what them but it was this hybrid of rock and theater. All very theatrical. Yeah. Alice Cooper is a very good friend and has been a friend for years and years. And he was in that as well. But he was he became more mainstream Bowie was underground for a long time. Did he pop? I feel like that's a pairing that's surprising to me that Sean Hannity. Alice Cooper were good friends back in the day. Were you guys good friends back in the day? Well, Alice is older than everybody is older than me. But

Unknown Speaker 1:24:37

I knew him back in the day because we played softball. We played softball against each other. He had a team called the Hollywood Vampires. And I was on the team and we would see each other all the time and he's a lovely guy, really. And a very grounded normal. You know, Alice is an invention. This one is a really random question, but apparently not

Unknown Speaker 1:25:00

1978 People wanted to know, did you love or hate wearing socks?

Unknown Speaker 1:25:09

I didn't wear them very often. Okay, good. The answer is, I don't know why wearing pink I did. The answer in the magazine says, hey, that's why I wear. What do you think you wore all the time?

Unknown Speaker 1:25:24

I'm embarrassed to say but say I think I were espadrilles.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:31

Right? You didn't even know what those are.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:37

I did too. To Can you said. You said hey, that's why I wear Canvas espadrilles. I love that you got that right. Without a flat or with a wedgie. Heel? I think flat. I'm assuming the flat ones, I'm sure. Yeah, I don't know. Man. You should see. That's true.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:55

True. says maybe Tom's came back Tom's brought the Espers drills back about eight years ago. Good espadrilles. Yes. drills are very comfy. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:06

Are two called Low Thor's I remember. Oh, that would like have drawstring and front. I mean, they all now would be called unisex all the clothes. Yeah. Okay. Right. That's how Rockstar boys dressed. You know?

Unknown Speaker 1:26:21

Aspiring rock star boys. Yeah. And the sad Well, besides obviously, besides the satin pants.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:27

Okay, this one should be I don't know if this will be easy, or if your tastes have changed. But what were two of your favorite movies at age 20.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:37

That you would have maybe said a godfather.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:41

didn't say that. But okay. I didn't say that. Really?

Unknown Speaker 1:26:46

It's a Wonderful Life. So I've said that you said in 1978. You said Star Wars? No.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:53

Okay, well, that was what we need to know. And okay when I liked Star Wars, but I would not have said that. That would have been well, they said you said Star Wars and Annie Hall. Well, Annie Hall was definitely one of my favorites. Okay. Yes. hasn't aged as well. But it was started. Yeah, that was great. Yeah, it says I'm reading straight. I'm reading straight from Teen grooves presents teen fever. It's not just teen fever to grooves because it says Star Wars in Annie Hall are his favorite movies. Two more questions. What was something you did when you were feeling playful? You're never gonna get this one. If you get it. I will be astounded. I was never feeling playful. hilarious to me. It was too old to be playful at all. Well, I'm way playful now. Okay, well, maybe you maybe you do this now. You'd shoot rubber bands across the room.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:39

Made up. Somebody made a radical kid. That was really right. Right. Okay. And lastly, rubber bands. I guarantee you they invented that. Of course they did. I'm just gonna read you a couple years. He's fascinated by Studio 54 rubber bands.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:59

He's, he's fascinated by danger. He wants to get a pilot's license and fly. Never in a zillion years. Fear of heights. Never in a million years when I've said I want a pilot's license.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:14

They lie.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:18

I think there's a lawsuit in that. Okay, last question. Who do you think you said you would love to do a love scene with Jacqueline but said, Oh, that was a great answer. You said Katharine Ross. Apparently, according

Unknown Speaker 1:28:33

to Katharine Ross, Mr. Katharine Ross, Jacqueline beset where my three crushes. And and Margaret when I was like, four when I saw her in that dress, I was gonna say she kissed you at age three. Maybe she was a family friend and she kissed you.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:51

Well, what's funny, this is true. When I took my mother to this Turner Classic movie thing they were honoring, and Margaret as well. They were running bye, bye, birdie. Nice. And the woman in charge of all of it called me and said he was with mom and we're coming down. He said, I said what are you doing? She said, I'm here with Dan. And Margaret. I said, Yeah. I said will you tell and Margaret that I had the biggest crush on her when I was like four or five. She's the first person I ever saw on the movie screen. First image I ever saw the movie was like 100 foot and Margaret in that orange dress shaky with me.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:25

And I've never forgotten it. Please tell her Shaun Cassidy said you were his first crush. And and Margaret says, Oh, that's very sweet.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:35

I had no idea who I was.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:38

And by the way again, she's probably heard that about 8 billion times about that. Because like I know because like when you know people come up to me. You're never gonna believe this. I had your poster.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:53

We didn't. We did not say that. Have you know the three of us

Unknown Speaker 1:30:00

Okay