ONJ and The Great Grease Debate: SUPERSIZED EDITION

Speaker 1 0:00

Hi, this is Christopher Atkins. I'm totally naked. Please watch and listen to the pop culture Preservation Society. It is a lot of fun. Wink wink.

Kristin Nilsen 0:13

Oh, awesome.

Michelle Newman 0:15

Welcome back everybody to another supersized summer rerun. This week we are rerunning. Is that what you would say? Yeah. Running, running, running.

Kristin Nilsen 0:26

This was him at NBC, how they say.

Michelle Newman 0:30

That's right. And this week, it's episode 80. Olivia Newton John and the great Greece debate. unbeknownst to us, Olivia Newton John passed away. Just days before this episode was set to air we had already recorded the bulk of this conversation between cardigan Sandy and carnival Sandy. But we felt really strongly about having an extra conversation at the beginning just kind of dedicated to Olivia Newton John and our feelings at her passing. And so this kind of took on a different tone at the beginning.

Kristin Nilsen 1:08

So already this episode is super sized. So we're super super sizing it right now. Because we have we have the debate about cardigan, Sandy and carnival Sandy, you thought there was nothing more to say about Greece. But you were wrong. There's a lot more to say about Greece. And then we do our tribute to o n j. So that's super sized. Now we're gonna supersize it some more, because I want to talk about a podcast episode that all of you need to listen to. One of my favorite podcasts is called for the record the 70s. And it is a podcast by a woman named Amy lively. It's a one woman show. She is a history teacher who was also a music lover, particularly of the 70s in the 80s. And so she'll take a musical topic of the 70s or the 80s. And then she will overlay her historical perspective on it, and she has such good information. It's

Michelle Newman 1:54

so done. It's so

Kristin Nilsen 1:55

well done.

Michelle Newman 1:56

She said, I know I've said this every time we talk about Amy lightly on her podcast, but it I have to say it every time the woman could read bedtime stories to me, and I would sleep sounder than I did when I was you know, 12.

Kristin Nilsen 2:11

Yeah, it's true. It is true. And what you guys need to listen to is episode 50 of for the record the 70s titled The Travolta trilogy. In this episode, she's looking at those late 70s movies up out Elton John, of John. We're talking about Saturday Night Fever, grease, and Urban Cowboy, which came out in 1977 1978 and 1980 in quick succession. And her question to the listener is, how much did John Travolta add to the success of those movies? Was it him? Was it something more?

Michelle Newman 2:50

It's a whole nother debate.

Kristin Nilsen 2:52

It's a whole other debate. Yeah, it really is. She really points out that Vinnie Barbarino from Welcome Back Kotter is the precursor to Tony Mineiro from Saturday Night Fever, and Danny Zuko in Greece. Da How could I not see that? It's so very clear. Vinnie Barbarino is those two people

Michelle Newman 3:14

is yeah, he's, he's the mash up of that. Yeah. And listeners if you haven't listened to our it's a two part episode on Saturday Night Fever. Please go back search that and you know, wherever you listen to podcasts, and listen, because you might just think, oh, it's that disco movie. It is not a disco movie. Disco is not even I feel like a main character. It's a supporting character to the story of that very deep story of that movie. That's a character driven movie way more than it's a music driven movie. However, we have two episodes, one devoted to our discussion, and our deep dive into the movie and the meaning and kind of what we thought about it then. And then how that changed as we became adults and watched it. But then we do also have a second episode devoted to the soundtrack because you can't not but Amy going back to this podcast episode. She agrees with us on so much of of what we talked about in our episode, it made me really wish she would have been sitting in on that episode with us. When she talks about Greece again. I was like I think saying oh yeah, that's like our, our debate. It's the same. You know how important she is. You could definitely be like fall asleep, Kristen. Oh,

Kristin Nilsen 4:28

yeah. Voice her voice.

Carolyn Cochrane 4:30

But she's boring. Kristen. I want to ask really fast because I haven't been able to listen to this episode yet of Amy's which I am excited to listen to but I'm curious does she talk at all about the boy in the plastic bubble? Did Vinnie Barbara so

Kristin Nilsen 4:45

funny cuz she because she does. She says something like, like so how is it that the boy in the plastic bubble becomes XY and Z and then he says if you know, you know. And I was like, I know. I know. Yeah, like raising my hand. I'm like horshack I know I know what it is.

Michelle Newman 5:04

Also, she goes through some of the music talks about the lyrics, which makes me remember and want to point out to you listening that we also have a two part episode. I agree soundtrack but that's super fun too.

Kristin Nilsen 5:18

So John Travolta actually, John Travolta actually auditioned for the role of Danny Zuko of Greece on Broadway in 1973 or 1972. Whenever Whenever Greece came to Broadway, he did not get the role of Danny Zuko. Instead, Jeff Conaway got that role. They thought John Travolta was a little too young. He was 18 at the time. Yeah, when he got duty. John Travolta went from duty to Danny Zuko, which is just and that really kind of shows his growth as an actor as a man. Really, I mean, if you're 18, you could still be as a skinny little kid, right? The other thing that I thought was really interesting was that he actually wanted to be a pop star. And so a lot of us know about his 1976 album called John Travolta, which gave us the top 10 Hit lettering. lettering. Clearly, I don't like this song because I've massacring the song letter. I don't like it. I don't like it. And I don't know how that got to be. Number 10. I have no idea. Anyway, that was not his first album. That was his second album. John Travolta had an album in 1974. But nobody knew who he was. And it didn't go anywhere. Many apologies to the people who love letter and I know there are people who love it. I just, I just don't like it. So I think the trajectory of John Travolta from duty to then Vinnie Barbarino, to then Tony Mineiro, to Danny Zuko. I suppose I should throw Urban Cowboy in there. But clearly, I'm not. And that's personal. Because I was like, oh, man, I've watched a movie with cowboy hats.

Michelle Newman 7:00

Well, this is a good question for our listeners. I know. You think we can't hear you when you respond to us, but we can. How many of you have seen Urban Cowboy? Yeah. Second question. Part B. How many of you remember it part? See how many of you liked it? Yeah. So like, we're gonna admit something here. Like we don't really either didn't see it? Or don't really remember?

Kristin Nilsen 7:22

Oh, Carolyn, you like didn't do? Well? No. I

Carolyn Cochrane 7:24

mean, see, I think it was again, they were kind of marketing, John Travolta. I mean, they were kind of trying to decide if he was going to be able to carry the movie because it was the same generation of people that loved him in Greece and Saturday Night Fever and had him hanging on our walls that would go see Urban Cowboy. So I remember thinking and like, and how I mean, I'm sorry, being from Texas. You can't see Vinnie and Tony. And as an that just was not that it was just seemed almost like they're really just trying to milk it because of John Travolta. But then also that whole country kind of scene was getting a little bit more mainstream. And so the music and that whole line dancing at these nightclubs, you know, these bars, Texas see kind of things was kind of sweeping the nation. So I saw the movie because it was something to see. But I didn't see it because of John Travolta. Yeah, it was more just because I better see it because everyone else is saying it was probably like a friend wanted to go and let's go see it. But yeah, and I still in my head, like seeing those movie posters. It just didn't work. Like you know, visually. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

Kristin Nilsen 8:42

I think that would be interesting. We should look that that up because I feel like it was a smash hit. However, it took a long time to see John Travolta again. I take that back. We did see him in subsequent movies that were big time flops. We saw him next in perfect doing aerobics with Jamie Lee Curtis. Oh, that's a video. Look up that and you can see John Travolta doing hip thrusts in jogging shorts. I don't want to. Yeah, don't do it. Don't do it. And then we saw him in staying alive, which was the sequel to Saturday Night Fever, which I loved. But it was not a good movie. I'll just admit it. It wasn't a good movie. But it was a dance heavy movie. And so I was super into it. And then he went away. And we just didn't really see him

Carolyn Cochrane 9:27

needed to go away though. I think he did. Again, like I said, our generation of people really anyone that first saw him and loved him as Danny and loved him and Saturday Night Fever. This is a huge jump to put him in this aerobics movie and this urban cowboy movie. It was just it felt yucky. We had to like really let him go away for a while and kind of get that Danny image out of our minds and we had to mature as adults and movie viewers. that we could see him in a different light, at least for me when you know and then of course we talked about his career after and but I think he needed that time away from us or otherwise we were always going to be comparing him to those original characters and it right be dumber and dumber as they came out, I think.

Kristin Nilsen 10:18

Right.

Michelle Newman 10:19

Well and to bring it back to Amy Lively's podcast. She actually says could Greece have been as as big of a hit as it was without John Travolta? Yeah, she says it could have been and I have to agree. I you know, we all will a lot of people just their trigger answer is no, God. No, he's the only Danny Zuko but it's because you've seen him. You've loved him in that. But I I think I could have seen other people and certainly not Henry Winkler who was up for the part

Kristin Nilsen 10:47

that was the front runner. Yeah. And her point, Amy's point, I think this is really important. It's kind of splitting hairs. But I think it's important. She's like, would it have been a hit? Yes, it would, because we were having this love affair with nostalgia and the 50s. Already, it would have been a hit. But John Travolta may have turned it into a cultural phenomenon. Yeah, yeah, that is what that and I think that's a really important point. I think the other thing that made it a cultural phenomenon or a hit depending on your, your perspective, is his chemistry with Olivia Newton John. that I think might have really made the movie, huh? I agree.

Michelle Newman 11:33

So please enjoy this super supersize mega super sized rerun of episode 80 Olivia Newton John and the great Greece debate.

Unknown Speaker 11:56

There was a time

Kristin Nilsen 12:07

you last week, we recorded an episode discussing a very important topic to we Gen Xers, the stunning and sometimes controversial transformation of ryedale highs. Sandy Olson, from our generation's most beloved movie Greece. It was an extremely personal conversation, because our feelings about Sandy have an awful lot to do with our feelings about ourselves. Little did we know that in just five days time, Olivia Newton John, our Sandy would be gone. And although it's always sad when our heroes die, this one came as a shock. Because I guess we thought Sandy would never die. And I think she meant a lot more to us than we knew.

Michelle Newman 12:52

I think I think you're absolutely right. I think it wasn't just her songs, or her characters, especially the iconic character that we all associated her with. I realized the other day that it was really who Olivia Newton John was and represented to us. To me she you know, I think she represented wholesomeness, regardless of the type black pants. But she represented kindness and goodness. And I wrote some words down just grace and light and warmth. I think she had a lot of Sandy and her though I think both Sandy's. I mean, you felt good just looking at her right. And I think for our generation, in a time when many of the singers and actresses we were emulating weren't so wholesome, kind or good. Olivia Newton John was just that much more important to us.

Kristin Nilsen 13:46

She exuded benevolence. Yeah, that's

Carolyn Cochrane 13:50

a great way to say that. She think that Oh, yeah. Without a doubt. So let me share with you guys where I was when I got the news. I was actually folding laundry. And Grace came in and told me she said, Mom, I think you want me to know this. And she shared with me that Olivia Newton John had died. And honestly, I didn't believe her. I just said, Are you sure? Are you have you read it correctly? And she said, Yes, mom. And she was showing me that tweet or the post and right then my phone rang. And it was my sister. Oh, and Levine and John was a huge part of our family's life. And I'll share that in a little bit. But I just picked it up and she just started singing the lyrics of our favorite song is not one that is popular, and that was on the radio, but it's one that we remember and like, Michelle was done, we choreographed a song to it and we're performing in front of my parents. So it was it was a gut punch. It literally felt like the wind had been knocked down to me when when I got the news.

Michelle Newman 14:50

You lost your friend. You know, kind of right. I feel like she felt like that she felt so familiar. Maybe that's the word. Yeah, mm. Well,

Carolyn Cochrane 15:00

yeah, I was amazed just after it all set in and going on social media, the scope and number of people who posted about her, just like the celebrities. I mean, you had everybody from our beloved Shaun Cassidy to Barry Gibb, to Donny Osmond to Katie Couric to the Bionic Woman, Lindsay Wagner had a photo posted with her that, and it was just like, she touched so many people's lives, across the, you know, across the gamut, not just us as regular people. But all of these celebrities who were touched by her. There

Kristin Nilsen 15:35

was a level of shock that I felt that I have not felt with other deaths, no matter how sad and no matter how important they were. And it's almost an I've questioned myself about that. Why were you in such shock? You knew she was sick. She had been battling this cancer for so long. Why are you in shock? And it turned out, I wasn't the only one to feel that way. The first person I heard from was my friend, Colleen. And what can you text to each other in that moment? Basically, you just text bubbles back and forth that say nothing because you're in shock. And she felt the same way too. It was almost as if she was preserved in amber. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Newman 16:13

Good. Yeah. Because of the light and the warmth. And the

Carolyn Cochrane 16:16

yes, that's a great and so

Kristin Nilsen 16:19

many people felt that way. Like in disbelief, despite the fact that we had this monster that was chasing her. We still were in disbelief. And I was in the car when I heard it. And the radio disc jockeys they were they were joking around as disc jockeys are want to do. And then one of them said, but it's time to get serious now and everything got very, very quiet. And then she said the words Olivia Newton John, and I just went no, no, no, no, no. No. Yeah,

Michelle Newman 16:50

I heard from Carolyn. Carolyn, you were the one that told me and Carolyn texted in our group chat and listeners. We, we know that you all felt it too, because we have gotten so many DMS and so many lovely. Just words from you all about how much she meant to you. Just coming from everyone, it seems like. But anyway, Carolyn, when I saw that, in our little group message. I immediately said I all caps No, like no. Like, I was like, no, no, like, I'm putting an excerpt over my face. Like, don't I refuse to accept this news? And I think, I think one of the things you just said, Kristen is we knew she had this, you know, this monster chasing her for decades, right? We all knew that Olivia Newton John had breast cancer for decades. I mean, gosh, remember when she first announced him she was so young, like 40 or something. But you know what, all the past maybe decade or more when you see how lovely she is. And one of the things I will say sidenote, but I have always appreciated about her is that she aged she let herself age. She was gorgeous. But she had the wrinkles on her neck and around her eyes and over her forehead. And but still looked beautiful and youthful, because I think she just was so full of goodness, she

Kristin Nilsen 18:11

exuded youth too. She totally did and sued youth and have wrinkles. Like they're not mutually exclusive. Right?

Michelle Newman 18:17

I hope so

Carolyn Cochrane 18:18

snows I think we should use.

Michelle Newman 18:20

I know, I'd like to think so we have wrinkles. We have a little bit of oh and J and us. But what I was going to say about that is I'm gonna I'm almost embarrassed to admit I had forgotten about her cancer, I think because looking at her over the past, you know, recently the most recent photos which I don't know, they could have be five years old. They could be six years old. She just she doesn't look sick. She doesn't look she looks it looks so she looks in control of her life. And I think she was and I think that's how she wanted and chose chose to live her life. And that's one reason I think a lot of us were also shocked and forgot maybe that she had

Kristin Nilsen 18:55

chose to forget, we chose to forget we chose to to just ignore this fact that was right in front of us, which just so that's why we were all punched in the face. Right? He felt punched in the face. Yeah,

Carolyn Cochrane 19:09

I was doubled over honestly, it was a physical response for sure. And, again, we aren't the only ones who had these responses to her death. I wanted to share a couple of pieces that I came across one post on Instagram by the author and activist Tyler Merritt. And he so succinctly put into words some of the feelings that I had, and I know a lot of us did. He said on every level Olivia was a superstar on screen on the microphone in print. Even when she danced she was an effortless triple threat before I even knew what a triple threat was. Was she my first ever crush? Honestly, I don't know. But real talk. I don't remember a girl before Olivia Newton John. Day I think she was the one who started it started all girls for me. Yep, Olivia Newton John was it and many times I wonder what is she doing now? Come to find out she was out there absolutely living her life to the fullest. She lived well and brilliantly. And I'm kind of honored that she was my first ever crush. I'd say I chose well, and he ended it with just saying, here's to someone's first crush, and then living a life that justifies all of that ridiculous puppy love.

Kristin Nilsen 20:31

Okay, speaking of like, Puppy Love, she was he is not alone in having her as his first crush, and one of the most famous is Donny Osmond. And he has given interviews about a segment that he recorded with her, I assume for the Donny and Marie show where he's singing. You're the one that I want with her.

Michelle Newman 20:52

He posted it this week did he post it's hilarious to watch diosmin singing those words. Yeah.

Kristin Nilsen 20:58

And he explains in the interview that he was beside himself to be singing this with her touching her, he talks about and he's a grown man saying this. He's like, I'm touching her waist, I'm touching her skin. And I cannot believe this is the woman I've loved for so long. Actually, timing wise, I'm pretty sure he was married to Yeah. And he couldn't believe it, because he had loved her for so long. And I think that was the case for so many little boys.

Michelle Newman 21:25

Some of our listeners too, because those of you who out there who have sent us your DMS, or we've seen your comments saying that she was your first crush, we've seen them, we've read them and our hearts are breaking for you too.

Carolyn Cochrane 21:37

And I think it was even a little bit deeper than it just being Olivia Newton John, one of our PCPs listeners, Jeremy Holliger, who also happens to be the executive editor of People magazine, wrote a piece and I will put a link to this in the show notes called Goodbye Olivia. Goodbye, youth. And he sent that to us. And here's one of the things that he wrote. He said, Olivia represents a different kind of celebrity loss. She is the first icon from my childhood that I can remember loving for her talent, beauty and youth who I got to watch grow older and live to a relatively ripe age. When she left. She took a piece of my youth with her. I can't remember a time in my life when Olivia John wasn't part of sorry, I just summed up so much for how I was feeling because she was a huge part. Again, like I said about growing up and my family. And yeah, it's like this kind of letting go or just taking this little piece of who we were with her and just kind of realizing our mortality at the same time. So true. Well,

Kristin Nilsen 22:47

and I think that I this is something that I've landed upon when I'm examining my own feelings, and I'm examining the feelings of the people in front of me when we're like, why are we so why do we feel this inside of our bodies like this? And I think it's because so many of us, literally became Sandy. We went home after school and we play acted, Sandy. We fell for a time we embodied Olivia Newton John. I want to say literally minutes applause I literally write like we became her for a year of our life. Two years of our lives, whatever it is, we put on the face we put on the hair, we pretended to be her we sang her words. We walked in her shoes, we did her choreography. Every day after school we became Olivia Newton John.

Michelle Newman 23:43

As you'll hear coming up, I mean, for me, Sandy, was it I instantly identified with that new girl uncomfortableness and the struggle with having that stigma but you know, I loved Sandy, I loved all of Sandy. I was enraptured by her, I think, but also, it's just everything she represented. And you guys, we should all be so lucky when we die, to have as many lovely things said about us, as are being said about Olivia Newton John, what a testament to the way she lived her life the way she was as a mother as a wife. And I can only imagine the great comfort that is bringing her family because they knew that being you know, being her family, but now realizing that everybody else saw that too. Has to be so comforting to them right now. So that's got to feel good.

Kristin Nilsen 24:36

I brought this up in our Barry Manilow episode. This is this is where we're Olivia Newton John seeps into your pores, right. My mom was very busy. She was in school later she was teaching school she had two small children. And the only time she had to practice her piano was after we kids were in bed. So we got a concert every night. I'm sorry. Okay, so we got a concert every night from our beds. And one of those songs that she practiced at night was Have you never been mellow. And I know that song. I hear it. It's a song that, for me was something I would hear in the dark in the quiet by myself when I was drifting off to sleep. I know it by heart with all the mistakes that my mom would make on the piano. And later, I would go to a John Denver concert years and years later, I went with my roommate. Hello, Martha. And my mom. We took my mom and for my mom, this was like a rock concert right going to see John ever this was crazy. Didn't she have a crush on him, too? Oh, yeah. She had a crush on John Denver. Yes. So this was a big deal. And when he introduced the song Fly away, he explained that Olivia Newton John famously sang back up on that song. And he said, Olivia is not here tonight. So I need you, the audience to be Olivia Newton John for me. And the whole audience, we sang as one. It sounded like one voice. We knew that part so well. And for just one moment, again, we were Olivia Newton Johnson. I've lived this crazy, the southern

Speaker 1 26:25

rise of things that you can't even see.

Carolyn Cochrane 26:46

I want to follow up on just what an impact she had on my family in terms of memories and parts of my growing up. I loved every iteration of living in John from Greece to Muse and Xanadu to her aerobic dancing and the physical video. But I've got to say it is the early 70s Olivia Newton John that holds a special place in my heart. I'm going to try not to cry, but my family loved her. We owned all of those early albums, and my dad would play them over and over again on the stereo. I mean, I could sing every word of every song I'm holding up two albums. I love that one if you love me let me know album and of course Have you never been mellow and I've been listening to those again ever since we got this tragic news. And you guys when I say I knew every word to every song I'm talking like on this on side to song you know for which happens to be on side too. Oh, actually song what is called the rivers too wide. I don't know that anyone would know that because it never made it on the radio. But that is the song that my sister and I started singing yesterday when she called. It is the song that it was such a it's a happy song. There's clapping in it. My mom was happy and clapped along.

Speaker 1 28:13

There. It was too wide now for crossing. The Lord is rush to talking. We're never getting to the other side. We

Carolyn Cochrane 28:27

loved her. Olivia Newton John is part of probably one of my all time five top family memories. On February 29 1976. My mom, my dad, my sister and I headed to the Houston Astrodome to see Olivia Newton John perform at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo. I remember my whole family singing along. Lillian Lillian is singing along to every song. And kind of like you Kristin. I remember it was one of my first memory of being in this collective environment. And every buddy there was so happy. The Houston Astrodome was filled with happy people. And I was a part of it. It was electric it while I say my first concert was Jim Nabors also. That's correct. I do not have a memory of that concert. I do, however, have a memory of this concert. So I do consider this my very first concert. You

Michelle Newman 29:23

know what that was so huge to you. In our day of the life of a seventh ninth grader, that was your day? Yes,

Carolyn Cochrane 29:32

it was. It was a day. And I think we made it a day and there wasn't a lot of things that you know, we'd sometimes all do as a family either. You know, my mom would usually take us to the movies and we've talked about that, all that but this was that collective, not just our family, but then this bigger hole. And honestly, there's nothing like that feeling when you're in an environment with so many other people and you're all happy and joyous, and she brought that out and people and I'm just so so glad that I have that memory and I haven't shared with my sister that we can always go back to that Touchstone and remember, just all of us being so happy. So that's why she holds such a special place in my heart. I'm

Kristin Nilsen 30:18

just gonna cry the whole episode.

Carolyn Cochrane 30:23

I know. And one of the other things that Jeremy wrote that I thought was really pertinent, he said, he equated Olivia Newton John and her stardom in the 70s and 80s to Adele and Taylor Swift now, like that was the impact she had on on our culture on everyone. And I thought that was a great way to describe her what she was and her presence.

Michelle Newman 30:50

Well, it's a compliment to Adele and Taylor Swift. Yeah, I think yeah, well,

Carolyn Cochrane 30:55

I just wanted, I wanted to share this really fun memory that one of our listeners DM us about today. So this is our follower, Susan Jackson. And she was talking about how she's gone back in time and remembering things about living in John. And one of those was that she remembered that Have you never been mellow was probably the first song that she ever learned by heart and knew every single word to sang it nonstop. She even got on her dad's CB radio and performed it in its entirety. And her brother her on his CB radio and came in and hit me for it.

Kristin Nilsen 31:36

Okay, that is adorable. And that's the song that when because of course I'm I'm just like mainlining Levine. Every time I get in the car every time I'm outside and in the house. I'm only listening to Olivia Newton John, I can't seem to listen to anything else. And it's funny. When have you never been mellow comes on. I always start to cry. I think that might be the crying song from now on. But just like you guys, these songs will come on and I know every single word and sometimes you guys a song will come on that I don't know. And I know the words. I know the words. Bizarre, and I can't stop listening to the Xanadu and I'm having, I can't stop like over and I'm watching the video. I'm I'm like a crazy person. I'm having rollerskating fantasies again. I'm like listening to Xanadu and I'm just picturing myself knowing how to do crossovers. I'm going backwards. And I can't do any of those things. But I am a 54 year old woman having a fantasy about skating backwards. And that is because of Olivia Newton John. And I just think this was what came to me because I can't stop listening to Xanadu. What kind of person are you? If you are beloved for what is considered to be one of the worst in history? Correct, Ruth verbal movie and people love her for it not in spite of it. For it as if her presence there was beloved despite the fact that what was going on around her wasn't that great?

Carolyn Cochrane 33:08

I think that's exactly it. That's exactly it. But

Kristin Nilsen 33:12

of course the number one reason that we Gen Xers remember oh MJ so fondly, is Sandy. Olivia Newton John give is probably our most enduring character. Whether you saw it nine times in the theater or you just watched it repeatedly on VHS at every slumber party of your youth. You looked at Sandy both Sandy's and you turned the mirror on yourself and you started to think about what you wanted for yourself. And I think that's a great place to stop and let you enjoy this episode that we never intended to be a tribute. And yet here we are. In loving memory of Olivia Newton John, please enjoy this very special episode of the pop culture Preservation Society. Olivia Newton John and the great Greece debate i love you i honestly

Unknown Speaker 34:17

Hello, World here's a song that was saying. Come on, get past

Michelle Newman 34:28

the break we'll make you happy. Welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society, the podcast for people born in the Bidwell generation who drink their water out of drinking fountains or hoses,

Carolyn Cochrane 34:41

bottles. We believe our Gen X childhoods gave us unforgettable songs, stories, characters and images. And if we don't talk about them, they'll disappear like Marshall will and Holly on a routine expedition. And

Kristin Nilsen 34:55

today we'll be saving the growing and ever changing theories about Gen X's favorite one We will be Greece, including the one spawned by the modern day internet.

Carolyn Cochrane 35:04

I'm Carolyn. I'm

Michelle Newman 35:05

Kristen. And I'm Michelle. And we are your pop culture preservationists.

Kristin Nilsen 35:22

If you could ever name a movie that is the favorite of an entire generation, it would probably be Greece. We know it by heart, we can sing all the songs, there's no need to recap it here because you all know it so intimately. If you've listened to previous episodes, you know that Greece holds my record for the movie that I saw the most number of times in the theater, which was nine, that is still my record. Today. I saw Greece in the theater nine times. But our childhood experience of watching it can be different from watching it through adult eyes. Because although this movie was beloved by children, this was made for adults, much like American Graffiti was,

Carolyn Cochrane 36:01

I'm going to say that almost all of it went over my head, to be honest with you, because I decided in preparation for this episode to go back and watch crease in the last couple of days, which I did. And oh my gosh, let's just say the entire movie is about sex. I mean, there's very little that's not referring to it in one way or the other. And what's interesting is, I think, even as an adult, I was still 12 year old Carolyn watching it. Yeah, you know, I was never watching it through 40 year old or 30 year old Carolyn's eyes, it was always going back to that moment of watching it as a kid. So again, I think a lot of that still went over my head because as I was watching it, I was just singing and I was not really reading between the lines. I

Michelle Newman 36:50

don't think a lot of it went over my head. I think I got a lot of it even at age nine. Like I got a lot of the Yeah, they're looking up your skirt, the just all the banter back and forth right away between Rizzo and Kenickie. And I remember getting it but I don't remember bothering me. Like I remember just sort of feeling like oh, that's what high school like kind of scared like, oh, that's what high school kids do. But it wasn't like I was I was scared by the movie. Or I felt like I shouldn't watch it. I know for sure that a lot of the lyrics of the songs went over my head. Like I happily saying, Tell me more. Tell me more Did she put up a fight? But like, like, was it rape? Was it fun rape? I don't know. That didn't even that wasn't even I wasn't registering that and in Greased Lightning. I knew a lot of those lyrics were like, you know, the chick scream like that. I might not have really known what that meant. I'll be honest with you. I don't think I knew what that meant. I probably thought it was like, you know, it was like ice cream or like, you know, puff pastry.

Carolyn Cochrane 37:56

Oh, no, no, that's what they were saying though.

Kristin Nilsen 37:59

Oh, yeah, sure. Because I had the lyrics I said, Yeah,

Carolyn Cochrane 38:02

I guess I must not have looked at the lyrics on my album because I would always say the chicks will scream. Yeah, that makes sense was always my Yeah, so the cream part that didn't matter

Kristin Nilsen 38:15

my friends likes talking about Greased Lightning. Can you believe it? And I would just go no, not having any idea with

Michelle Newman 38:22

no I don't I didn't get that line. But like, we'll be getting lots of tit that one I understood that really embarrassing. And then when they yell a real pissy wagon, like that, yeah, I would never I would like just mouth it like I can remember not like because when I would, you know perform this for you know, my audience of my stuffed animals and just me my reflection in the mirror. I would. I would also be all the T birds singing Greased Lightning. Like I wasn't just Oh, gosh.

Carolyn Cochrane 38:49

I'm doing Oh, yeah, I'm

Michelle Newman 38:51

doing the dance right now. I I know that I wouldn't say a lot of that stuff like the real pushy wagon. I think I would just melt that because I was I still was good sandy

Kristin Nilsen 39:01

wagon. I probably did too. Or the cat wagon. The

Carolyn Cochrane 39:05

line right before it is I can get off my rocks. And I don't I know. I didn't.

Kristin Nilsen 39:10

I didn't know that till this minute. Carolyn.

Michelle Newman 39:14

I was about to say about that one. I was gonna say rizos pregnancy. That did not go over my head. Like I knew what was going on. I thought it was shocking, but I never ever believed it for a second like I never believed Rizzo was a high school girl for a second because she always looked at that grown ass woman to me. Yeah, so like, that never really bothered me. I was just like, whatever she's like, actually a woman so she's you know,

Kristin Nilsen 39:37

did you get the skip to period the broken typewriter? I don't know like the broken.

Carolyn Cochrane 39:41

The Broken type skipped a period Sure. But she

Kristin Nilsen 39:44

was referring to Rizzo as a broken typewriter because she skipped a period Oh, and but I had no I didn't know they had to talk about that at the drive in what that meant. And then been in the oven. I remember I was seeing with my cool and it was probably like the seventh time I saw it or something like that. At and, and she's I don't know if I asked her a bun in the oven was but she told me it means she's pregnant and that I had seen it many times. And I had no idea that this was a pregnancy scare until she told me what bun in the oven was. And then that helps me understand the whole ending of the movie when she said it's a false alarm. I was like, what are they excited about? I don't know what they're excited about. You know, I

Carolyn Cochrane 40:24

think a lot of it too had to be what age we were when we saw it, because I was 12 going on 13. So I kind of understood a little more like the missed period versus you were 10. Right? Yeah, it was. So that there's that's a huge difference in terms of age, although part part of me probably was a 10 year old in terms of how much of this did go over my head. But But yeah, so I was thinking, because my sister saw it with me. And so that would have been, if I was 12. She was just like, eight. So she saw this between eight and nine, while Michelle's age at the movie theater, which I'm sure all of it went over her head, but I think the age part had something to do with

Kristin Nilsen 41:05

it. Yeah, definitely. I did. And if you were 10 years old, maybe you knew what periods were. But you didn't know this skipping a period meant and Right. Right. So I had no idea. And I wonder about, we've talked before about our parents, and you know, if there was so much sexual innuendo in this movie, why did they why did they let us see it? Or do you have any questions? And I've mentioned this before, I brought my parents to see this movie after that might have been my ninth time. Like I'd seen it eight times. And I finally got my parents to see it. And I thought they would really enjoy it because this would be mirroring their experience in high school. And they did, they loved it. And they had no concerns. They didn't ask me about anything. They just thought it was a trip, which is not and again, my parents are goody two shoes. So you would think this would cause them some concern? No, not a bit.

Carolyn Cochrane 41:54

So I want to share a little bit about the lyrics from Look at me. I'm Sandra Dee. That really struck me because you know the line. Look at me, I'm Sandra. Go to bed when I can. And you could tell while Stockard Channing is singing that, that this is kind of she's been made fun. I've seen these being made fun. But at the same time, I'm thinking that's kind of who I am. And that's definitely playing in my head. And, of course, the nostalgia of the songs of my parents, you know, they were letting they were singing right along with me. And my mom would tell me who Troy Donahue was. And then there's the there's the last line at the end, where are one of the last lines where she says, Hey, fungal, fungal? Oh, Sandy comes out and then says, Hey, are you making fun of me? And I was like, fungal Is that another name for Elvis? Like, what does this mean? And I remember my dad telling me like, well, that's kind of Italian slang for well, he probably said, Get out of here, or whatever I've come to learn is like, Fuck you or go fuck yourself is kind of what it means. And so they had to know a little bit about this. But that was a great example of how they just kind of glossed over it. And it was just like, you know, get out of here.

Kristin Nilsen 43:19

And I think the same cool aunt told me about fungal like that means fuck you because my parents would never have said the word fuck. They never I've

Michelle Newman 43:26

said that this song. This I think this is so interesting. And this is such a good representation of this entire movie for me. So this song in the entire soundtrack was my number one favorite song. It was my favorite song to sing. It was my I thought the lyrics were so funny and clever. And but what's interesting is there's such a juxtaposition with this whole movie, and especially the song and then me who I was at nine years old, at 1011 1213 1415 watching it all the way to now and you know, like I've longtime listeners know that I've always said that. I'm good sandy, right? Like, I'm the good girl. I was the rule follower. I hate conflict. I, I'd never wanted to rock the boat. I could go on and on. But I have therapy tomorrow, so it's fine. For therapy. I'll save it. Yeah, I'll save it for my therapist. But what's interesting to me when preparing for this podcast episode, that I've never ever thought of before, is that like that song and those lyrics, you know, lousy with virginity, they're making fun of her. And like Carolyn, you said you kind of had entered your mind like well, that's kind of who I am right now. But yet at the same time, this whole movie and this song in particular, didn't like didn't make me feel bad about myself but what it is is it's like and then just a little bit I will tell you about some of the revelations I had when really thinking as an age 53 year old woman now and now really embracing my good sandy and I'm not embarrassed by my good sandy anymore. And I don't feel ashamed like I felt like I was made to feel a lot about my good sandy. It's just really interesting to me that this movie was so important to me and I loved it so so much when really if you think about it good Sandy has been made fun of a lot and she's very out of place. I identified with her so much but what what is it you guys about this movie? That didn't? That I didn't hate it? Because, you know, I mean, logic says I hated this movie. That was my favorite song. I don't and I can't explain it. I don't know if it's just the magic of the movie. But there you go.

Kristin Nilsen 45:35

That leads into one of the one of the biggest juxtapositions of the movie, I think, which is that even if you were the good girl in your heart, when we were little we were so excited for Sandy to turn naughty. We loved carnival Sandy, and I did

Michelle Newman 45:53

not shaking your head keep going but oh no.

Kristin Nilsen 45:56

Because but if when you but you still are feeling you're still loving the movie so much and you're still not feeling as if it's belittling you. And I just wonder both of these things. How is it that you don't feel a slammed by this movie? And also why did we love as children carnival Sandy's so much? What did that represent for us? Like

Michelle Newman 46:16

I just wrote Speak for yourself because I was not excited for her to turn naughty. Like I know that filled me with trepidation. It filled me with anxiety. The pink ladies the T birds, they made me nervous. I don't know. I just feel like I didn't want her to. I didn't believe it. I just never believed that. She could turn on a dime like that. I mean, that wasn't Sandy. That was I mean, the big hair, the pants, the hair the cigarette. Like I just, it didn't make me hate the movie. Don't get me wrong. That part just never rang true. Like I always felt like she changed herself into someone who she wasn't truly. Oh my god. Like she says, she says, like, she sits there and she says you know wholesome and pure. Oh so scared and unsure. A poor man Sandra D. And then she says goodbye to Sandra De she literally a saint and I never felt like she wanted to say goodbye to Saturday. I felt like I felt like that, that hold that one ad was just way too unbelievable for me. And I didn't like that. I

Kristin Nilsen 47:24

am. I got lots of feeling oh, Carolyn, go? Well, me

Carolyn Cochrane 47:27

too, because I wrote down almost the exact opposite of everything. And again, I think the age that we saw this movie might have something to do with it. But I wrote, I hate to admit it. But this ending seemed very logical. To me. This seemed like what had to happen. It was the happy ending that we wanted and expected, because it played right into this message that we had been fed that the only way to get the guy was to be the slutty girl. And we can simply we can look back to Saturday night to Saturday Night Fever and our discussion about a net and how she felt the only way she was gonna get John Travolta was to sleep with him and to be the sleepy girl. That message was conveyed again to us and we we believed it. I mean, I believed I don't want to obviously speak for Michelle because she didn't. But I thought she wanted him so much. She wanted Danny so much that she was willing to turn on that dime. She was willing to go. I mean, I did it you guys. I mean, I have to say it but I wore up the push up bra in high school and wore a tight sweater over it. Now granted, I'm you know, at this time going 12 going on 13 When I'm seeing this movie, so these thoughts are going through my head and it's just, it's what I believed you had to do to get the guy you know, and that's obviously what she was going to do to get to get him he wasn't going to become you know, it wasn't that she put on her cart back put on her cardigan sweater and matched him at the end of the movie. He took off his Letterman sweater and went back to being who he was.

Kristin Nilsen 49:01

I am like exploding right now. I don't know where to go in the

Carolyn Cochrane 49:05

house. They were listening. I

Michelle Newman 49:06

know I still have I'm gonna bite my tongue because I have so much more personal experience to share, backs up my back's up my position.

Kristin Nilsen 49:14

So I and I think this is the case for a lot of people was just her sheer beauty. When she came out our jaws dropped everybody's jaws dropped not just boys girls jaws dropped too. I the way Sandy looks in when she came out in those funky pants and the big hair. I'm pretty sure that was the model I emulated all through the rest of my life. I am positive it didn't come out for a long time. But by the time I got to high school, I was pushing some boundaries hard, really, really hard. And plus new Sandy was this was what it represented to me. She was going to have fun now. Now's when the fun is going to begin. Right? Yeah, but she didn't I also hold on. We loved the pink ladies, we love the pink ladies. They were having fun. We weren't meant to like Patty Simcox. Did you like Patty Simcox?

Michelle Newman 50:07

I did like Patti Simcox.

Carolyn Cochrane 50:12

Would love to get our listeners to after this.

Michelle Newman 50:15

She was annoying, but I thought she was kind of funny in she wasn't like it'll Patty's

Kristin Nilsen 50:21

not laughing with, we're laughing at Herbie not Yeah, yeah. So what this all comes down to because we have three very different things going on here and what this all comes down to is authentic self. And we're all coming to this conversation with not just our our authentic self right now, but our authentic selves as we were children watching it. And we all have different opinions of who Sandy's authentic self was. So Michelle, it sounds like one of your arguments is that this was not believable to you. I'm going to challenge you on that because it might not be believable to you because of the filter through which you saw it. Because for me, I felt like Sandy was unleashed. And she 100% I'm not judging Excel, right?

Michelle Newman 51:01

That's why I say to me, that's why I say yeah, I would never judge anybody else for their for their feeling about this movie or for their feeling about Sandy. That's why he said to me,

Carolyn Cochrane 51:12

right, and I think you bring up a great point, Kristen, it's the filter through which we Yeah, viewed this movie because I don't think that she was unleashing her regular or, you know, her true self. I think she was submitting to becoming this thing that she maybe necessarily wasn't to get the guy not that she wouldn't maybe have some fun doing it. But I actually never felt during the movie that she was stifled being being Sandy. Like, I would probably say that was her true self in my opinion, but that she had to be willing to, you know, quiet that small voice and say, Okay, I'm gonna have to play into this one if I'm gonna have the friends not be made fun of get the guy.

Michelle Newman 51:57

Yeah, I thought that too. I that's more how I felt about it, too. I just feel though like, and I don't want to I don't want to be a part of this. Like, I don't want in this conversation to like, have to feel bad about my good sandy and how I felt. But I just think that like when Rizzo said she looks too pure to be pink. That spoke to me so much like I felt that because you guys moving as much as I did. I had so many times were being the new good girl was real was like, really hard. And it was like a real mark against me. And I just a couple of times fell in with whoever I could to be part of a group. Here's the thing. I just feel like as a good Sandi who always, always felt like she had to apologize for it. And more than once considered just saying To hell with it, and caving into peer pressure. Just to be naughty, do the things I honestly didn't want to do. Whether that was smoke or drink or shoplift cheat on tests, whatever. Because that would be easier than just living with that good girl stigma. And I just could never believe that carnival Sandy was who she truly was like, I saw so much of myself in cardigan, Sandy, that even at age nine and 10 I just didn't believe it. And you know what? Maybe she wasn't 100%. cardigan, Sandy. But carnival Sandy was like a total 180. And I felt I always just felt like there had to be somewhere in the middle that everybody could be happy.

Kristin Nilsen 53:28

But it doesn't movie. Yeah, that's one therapy. Right?

Carolyn Cochrane 53:30

We want everybody to be happy. But yeah, it can be both and, and but yeah.

Kristin Nilsen 53:38

It's a movie. And there's an agency question that goes along here? Because it sounds like you have really strong feelings? Well, both of you actually have really strong feelings about why she did it. And the question has to be asked was Sandy changing herself so that Danny would like her? That's, I think what our prevailing wisdom was as adults, or was she allowing herself to embrace a side of herself that gave her more agency over her own body? Was this the inner wild side that she embraced with Danny? I mean, why is she with Danny in the first place, and she can embrace this wild side in the summer, far away from home where no one knew her, or there would be no repercussions, her reputation would be intact, because in the 1950s, your reputation was everything and it was a binary choice. You could be a good girl, or you were a slut. And I use that word on purpose. And this was a choice that men didn't have to make because there's no slut shaming of men. There are no male sluts. I mean, not in the 1950s Boys, boys will be boys. Boys could sow their wild oats. But women were virgins, and then they were wives, but there was no place for them to be to explore. They're absolutely age appropriate feelings. I see a hand go up. Well,

Carolyn Cochrane 54:47

I just quit and I know we're being so good and like trying to bite our tongues and all of that. One I would argue or I would say I don't think that she was slow. The Carnival Sandy, I guess going into the new summer perhaps but not the former summer where we are introduced in the movie beginning summer. And I would say there was just as much shame toward John Travolta's character toward Danny, being a good guy that he had to pretend he wasn't. So maybe, you know, we've got the slug for the girl and the upstanding guy, so he had to pretend to his friends. No, I wasn't that all those things that she's singing about that he was which I tend to believe that's who he was that summer. He was not himself. I agree. Totally. Yeah. And so I think that it can almost go both ways. Like in I think we see that in the movie that anytime a guy was trying to be emotional, or let his guard down a little, that they almost stopped themselves, you know? Absolutely. Again, John Travolta.

Kristin Nilsen 55:51

So? Yeah, yeah, it's kind of funny. It's Saturday

Carolyn Cochrane 55:54

Night Fever. We talked about how his face he can do so much with just that face. And you could see him go from this goofy guy, you know, upstate. Right. It's just motions or facial expressions. And then we can see the transition right away. He didn't even have to say anything. So he went

Kristin Nilsen 56:16

from authentic to artifice in a heart but

Michelle Newman 56:19

because I actually yeah, I don't know that T bird Danny is his authentic self. The reason I say that is because I never bought into the fact that beach Danny was the same as T bird, Danny, which now makes me actually want to clarify them and ask some hard questions about his self identity and the level of honesty he had with himself and his so called friends. Because he was he being true to let's go back to the very beginning on the beach. They're very sweet. She is 100% cardigan, Sandy there she is like, she thinks he's so sweet. She in summer nights, you guys, she tells her friends, he held her hand, he was respectful to her. He was the good boy, he was he held her hand, they didn't go make out under the dock with you know, the thrusting pelvis that you see them doing upon the bleachers when the T birds are singing their version of summer nights. And so I just see that, like, Danny is also in this sort of juxtaposition. He's also in this kind of identity crisis, right? And I just want to sit them down and say, Let's have an honest talk. Danny, could we just can we really talk this through?

Carolyn Cochrane 57:25

But I just wonder why. You know, slutty Sandy one, like why was Danny quick? Letterman sweater? Well, no.

Kristin Nilsen 57:34

Let's say slightly Sandy. Let's do it. Because this is if let's be honest, if if the if the transformation went in the opposite direction, if she was a greaser girl, and she turned into cardigan, Sandy, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We only have conversations about women and how they turn slutty Right. Like we're this is probably the first conversation about Danny that's ever been had. Nobody ever talks about Danny's transformation because he gets to do whatever he wants. We're the only people who are talking about him. If we were if she turned into a good girl, there would be no controversy. But we judge women based on their clothing. And let's not forget that in the summer lovin, we assume that it's Danny, who's lying, but we don't know that. It's that it's him who was lying. And he never said we fucked under the dock. He says we made out under the dock. Do we really think she didn't make out with him? I mean, let's be they're teenagers. They're teenagers do I was

Michelle Newman 58:35

a teenager. I didn't make out with anybody in high school.

Kristin Nilsen 58:38

Well, that's perfectly normal. Let's just be sure to ever knows. And

Michelle Newman 58:42

I was scared. I was scared.

Kristin Nilsen 58:44

Normal, having sex. So perfectly normal. And I don't believe for a minute that she didn't make out with him under the doubt.

Michelle Newman 58:53

No, it's I do I do. Because if I look at all her behavior, then going into that slumber party and everything like that, I think that they probably held hands, they kissed they were very sweet. I look at her behavior and how uncomfortable she was when everybody was talking about sex and everything and it and it makes me feel the total opposite. But

Carolyn Cochrane 59:11

you know, it's, I'm just thinking about this, that song. And it's as much as what he doesn't say as to what he does say because he's talks about how she got crazy down in the sand. And he's always like, if you know what I mean, he never comes right out and says anything. But he certainly alludes to it and yeah, it's just really interesting.

Kristin Nilsen 59:35

And she's the one who's going to be shamed for it, not him. He's gonna get he's going to I just finished Pam and Tommy, you guys so this is very relevant. He's gonna get points, whereas she's the one who's going to pay the price 100% admits to making out under the dock and we know how. First of all we know it's developmentally appropriate to have sexual urges and to have sex when you're a teenager. It's also very normal to not have sex when you're a teenager. But we know that

Michelle Newman 1:00:02

I didn't have sex when I was a teenager. I just said

Carolyn Cochrane 1:00:08

that but I'm not getting cut clarification. I'm not

Kristin Nilsen 1:00:11

at all. But we know how normal it is to have sex as a teenager as evidenced by the vast numbers of our parents and grandparents who had preemies. Right. Once a lot of premies was born. It was right, so many preemies and I guarantee you your grandma wasn't a slut. She wasn't a slip. She was just a random teenager that

Michelle Newman 1:00:37

hate that word now and I know that I know we're using a word going I know and everybody listening we're doing it on purpose. They're using that word and I say there because I'm still uncomfortable using they're using that word going back to when that word was used when this movie came out. We also call her I like I love how you you coined the term carnival Sandy that's what made me think of cardigan Sandy because in my whole life up to now I thought good sandy, bad Sandy. Good Sandy, bad Sandy. And it made me think the other day. Why What was it that made me I never once thought slightly Sandy. Like, I never once thought, Oh, she's slutty. I just thought good sandy, bad Sandy and bad. Sandy, I realized comes from just let's go all the way back to the Westerns. Settling everybody. You know, you've got the good guy and the bad guy, right. And the good guys always in white, or in light colors, and the bad guys always all dressed in black. So to me, I think bad Sandy is is is just as representative of the clothes she's wearing really like the brand.

Kristin Nilsen 1:01:37

And then and then we extrapolate that to mean, when we we look at the clothes that she's wearing. And we extrapolate that to mean something about her behavior, when in actuality, it has nothing to do with whether or not she's gonna go off and have a bunch of sex with Dan, I don't know that she's gonna go exactly. No, we don't know that. But this is what society has told us to do. And I even think about when at the drag race when Frenchie, this is the goodbye to Sandra De part. And when Frenchie comes to her and says, I can help. And is she saying, I can help? I can help you change so that Danny will like you or his friend, she's saying, I see you. And I can help you unleash the beast, like I said before, and this leads that folks full circle. Moment of Look at me, I'm Sandra dee dah started with a look at me and Sandra Dee, and then ends with goodbye to Sandra De good.

And she is notably and I think Michelle and I are going to disagree about this through my filter. She is notably relieved, she isn't she's coming face to face with the fact that her good girl exterior is masking her real feelings about what she does under the dark with Danny. And it's sort of like she can just cast aside the 1950s and be like, Fuck my reputation. I'm going to do what I feel. And I don't need to be this kind of person in order to maintain my reputation because your reputation is what determines your future in the 1950s. If you have if you're a good girl, you're gonna marry a nice boy and you're gonna have a nice future. If you're a bad girl, you're not gonna have a future.

Michelle Newman 1:03:21

Yeah, respectively, respectively. I feel like that spoken like someone who was never a true like, I felt like they were that true Good girl, like the very like, I have to play by the rules. I have to not rock the boat, whether it'd be on my family, whether it be in and then that just carries on to school. And you feel like you have to apologize. Did I have probably a lot of issues with, you know, being scared to kiss a boy and stuff like that? Absolutely. Again, that's for my therapist, but I just feel like Sandy, the goodbye to Sandra Dee is not realistic to me. Did I want to take more risks? Did I wish I could be a little bit more carnival Sandy. Sure, of course I did. But to completely say goodbye that would have been so not not true to myself. So that's why

Kristin Nilsen 1:04:10

intensely that is very intensely personal. But it may or may not have anything to do with Sandy. And

Michelle Newman 1:04:15

same as what your but same as your opinion. But same as your opinion may or may not have anything to do with Sandy. Just looking at this through our own lens. I mean, that's just that's the thing. We can't say one of us is

Carolyn Cochrane 1:04:24

right and chime in with my lens because again, when there are three of us, we all have different perspectives. I feel like I kind of fall in the middle with this. I agree with both of you maybe a little bit more towards Michelle. I really don't know that I ever got that we were unleashing this hidden part of Sandy but I'm really like liking thinking about that. But I want you guys to remember the timeline of how this happened and when she decided to become or to change because we are coming off of the dance where she is drug drug off the dance. flora and Danny dances with cha cha cha cha. And 40. See? Yeah, she's

Kristin Nilsen 1:05:07

like, Yeah,

Carolyn Cochrane 1:05:08

and that's a whole nother discussion. Yeah, old. All of these people were he's dancing with cha cha. And Sandy watches that and sees that and sees how he's moving. And I think that was the moment she decided, I've, I've got to change if he's going to be himself, whatever. That is who I have to be. I think that was the turning point of the movie. I don't think she was ever that person, personally. And yeah, so then she's going she's she wants to talk to him. That's why she's headed to the, to the race. And he ends up having to Dr. Cha Cha is there, you know, and she's the one who sets them off to go. And so that was when she's like, I want that guy. I want him and then she sees Frenchie, and she's ready to go all in. So that's my take on

Kristin Nilsen 1:05:55

well, and that is also and I'm not saying that that isn't sex sex figures prominently here. But that could also be because we're as Puritans were hyper sexualized. We'd see sex everywhere. And the truth is that ChaCha was really grown up. As you said, Michelle, she's like 40. But for a teenager, like there was a vast difference amongst teenagers. There's a vast difference between maturity in in 16 year old 17 year old girls, and ChaCha has really grown up. And Sandy is she's very naive image. She's not immature. She's perfectly she's perfectly fine to

Michelle Newman 1:06:32

shave, I think. Yeah, I think but I think she's naive. I think she's, a lot of this stuff that she's experiencing is really eye opening to her. I don't think she's ever really been around people like this. And this is this was in Australia. Let's remember

Carolyn Cochrane 1:06:47

she's, yeah.

Kristin Nilsen 1:06:50

And so ChaCha represents somebody who's very grown up. And there is a desire amongst some people that, like God, I'm stuck in childhood, and I really want to grow up. And she saw ChaCha as being able to do whatever she wanted, she could express herself in any way she wanted, with no worry for the repercussions to her reputation. And in so doing, Danny is then unleashed. Danny is just and when we see them, we assume that there's something sexual but the truth is, he's really in his own head, right? They're not going off to have sex. They're just dancing and they win the dance contest. That is the point and they win the dance contest, because they are so free, much to the chagrin of the administration of the school, because there should be no sexually provocative moves. But let's face it, that is free, that is free and it is not safe. And Sandy plays it safe and when she plays it safe, then Danny has to play it safe and nobody's having any fun. No one's having any fun. And so what she sees when ChaCha is able to let loose and be free is that they're having a shit ton of fun. And dammit, that's what I wanted to. I just want to have fun. I just want to have a good time

Carolyn Cochrane 1:08:01

and she wasn't having a whole lot of fun with Lorenzo lamas. You know, they made me that apparent like he was like, it's so boring. And yeah, they do show that like, Oh, these cardigan wearing guys are not that exciting to be around. Right?

Kristin Nilsen 1:08:17

That is so true, though, that it's very clear that she is not having fun with Lorenzo lamas. She's playing it safe. This is the safe thing to do in the 50s in order to protect your reputation, and I'm sure her parents would have been like this will this will seed your future. If you're a good girl, you're a beat. You'll have a nice future. If you're a bad girl and you have fun. If you have too much fun. You won't have a future and results solo. I think it's one of the best songs on the soundtrack and it gets overlooked it kind of epitomizes this whole dilemma that we're talking about. Rizzo likes exploring her sexuality, she is unapologetic about it. She refuses to be told that she can't enjoy that. But she also knows there's a societal cost a cost that Kenickie does not have to pay. Right. This is not on Kentucky. This is all on her, even though he offers to marry her when he thinks that she's pregnant. But that is his choice to offer to marry her. He's not going to be ostracized from the community. He's not going to be sent to a home for six months for unwed fathers. Right so Rizzo solo and Rizal solo. She says, There are worse things I could do than go with a boy or two. Even though the neighborhood thinks I'm trashy and no good. I suppose it could be true, there are worse things I could do. Then she says I could stay home every night. I could wait around for Mr. Wright. I could take cold showers every day denying that she has these urges whereas Kentucky doesn't have to deny his urges. He can sow his wild oats but she has to deny her urges and throw my life away. This is the important part and throw my life away on a dream that won't come true. She knows this is a myth. This whole thing about being a good girl and your reputation and what it means for a future is is for your future is a myth. And then the end of the song is the crescendo. And she just belts it out. She said, I don't steal, and I don't lie, but I can feel and I can cry, which is a fact, I bet you never knew. And the worst thing that I could do is cry in front of you, which is a message to her detractors that I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of letting you know how your judgments hurt me, I don't stay.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:43

That's the worst thing.

Michelle Newman 1:10:57

It's such a beautiful song.

Kristin Nilsen 1:10:59

It's such a good song. And it sums up the whole dilemma. And it really kind of talks more to our parents generation than to us because like you said, Michelle, I think having the stink of the good girl on you in the 80s was something that you did not want. I certainly didn't want it. Right. But in the 50s, I think it was reverse. And in talking about it, we're kind of doing it right now, to a certain degree, because our conversation was really only about the women, we're trying to say that it's about changing your personality in order to win the affection of a boy, which is true, that's a bad message. Don't do that. That's a really bad message. But like I said before, if the transformation were in reverse, and she went to a good girl, we wouldn't be having the conversation at all. So the movie at the end sort of hints at this myth, that Rizzo is referring to that if you're a good girl, you'll have a good future. And if you're a bad girl, you'll have a bad future, when the principal is making the announcements over the loudspeaker on the last day of school, and she's acknowledging the seniors. And she says, who knows, we may have the next Eleanor Roosevelt in our midst, and the camera lingers on Rizzo the bad girl busting that myth.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:12:10

Wow. Thank you. I'd never thought of

Michelle Newman 1:12:13

that. I don't think I ever caught that.

Kristin Nilsen 1:12:15

It's very subtle. But I think that that was their story of the 50s.

Michelle Newman 1:12:20

I mean, I think maybe by that song, they're trying to change our our view of Rizzo a little bit because that song, the lyrics are so beautiful, and it's so true. But yeah, I think that I think that I don't think that went over my head. I think I was thinking, there's the good girls, and then there's the bad girls that smoke and drink and have sex at nine years old. And that's so horrible that like, yeah, that no one's having that conversation with me or that

Kristin Nilsen 1:12:49

conversation with me either. Well,

Carolyn Cochrane 1:12:51

that leads me to what I was gonna say. But that conversation was had with me. So it wasn't the reputation that I was trying to avoid. It was my parents Wrath and the wrath of the Catholic Church. I mean, those were all bad behaviors that would, you know, my parents would think less of me and all of that. And I would get in trouble, whatever that looked like. So it was not a societal thing. It was this, you'd be punished you it was just bad that those

Kristin Nilsen 1:13:19

but that's where societal norms begin. So that was your preconceived notions.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:13:22

Sure. But I wasn't thinking about, you know, being the good girl, bad girl thing at that point. I was thinking about, I would get in trouble. Like, I wouldn't smoke because I could get caught. I wouldn't. Yes, but another thing I think we could talk about a little bit is, if you remember the scene where they have sex, he pulls out a condom, and it's broken. And which I didn't, like, Yeah, I'm sure I didn't either. No idea. I might have vaguely but, but he's pretty much like, this isn't going to happen, because this is broken. And she's the one who said, like the heck with it. She's the one who then goes, you know, obviously, pushes the envelope pushes it right and says, Well, heck with it, we're gonna go for it anyway. So that's another interesting part. If we really thought about that, it's not like he forced himself on her and said, Oh, it'll be okay. She took the initiative. And was like, I guess she was willing to take the chance. And so she was

Kristin Nilsen 1:14:23

the agency rather, that was a good decision or a bad decision. But

Carolyn Cochrane 1:14:27

it was her decision which

Michelle Newman 1:14:28

she has to do well, and she has a responsibility in it as well then if she's if revenue going into that sexual encounter, that this you know, that oh, we're not really being careful.

Kristin Nilsen 1:14:42

You know, then this is so funny, because speaking of the things that we didn't understand, I am just now right now. 54 years old, putting together that scene. With the skipped period broken typewriter been in the oven, Ferris wheel, it was a false alarm. I'm just connecting those dots right now.

Michelle Newman 1:14:59

You've seen this how many times well nine

Kristin Nilsen 1:15:03

in the theater but how many home right

Okay, so let's talk about the end a little bit. We can all agree well, I don't know actually I'll ask when I was a kid. I thought the ending was weird when we have this great carnival it's like the best day of your life and then they get in the fancy car and then the car begins to fly. And I was just thought that was really strange like the movies pretty straightforward up to that point and then it because there's this like, fantasy element that's that is thrown in. And I remember thinking that when it happened and they looked at each other with these surprise looks, it was so inauthentic and awkward. Even as a 10 year old I was like, I'm this is where you guys are cool. 60 seconds ago and now you're just weird. I don't know. Did you guys feel the same about

Michelle Newman 1:15:59

right when you beat they look at each other and they kind of go like Wally more freaked out? Wouldn't you be like what the fuck just happened? Yeah, I'd be like looking around like, oh my god, get us down. We're gonna fall think but they're so excited when they look at each other. They're like,

Kristin Nilsen 1:16:17

they're like children. They're like, loved it.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:16:21

And less. Lest we forget, there are a couple of scenes during the movie where we get these. You know, we get Frankie Valli being the angel. When they're redoing the car, and they do the dance and greased lightning is really all actually cars end up in it is the same car that they're driving incidents as well. And that car never that was a fantasy cart. That wasn't what they ended that was

Kristin Nilsen 1:16:51

that wasn't your right. Okay, so there are some little little breadcrumbs dropped a fantasy nonetheless. I thought it was more awkward at the end. Oh, it was just happy. It was like

Carolyn Cochrane 1:17:00

riding off into the sunset there together. Yay.

Kristin Nilsen 1:17:03

This ending this gave birth to a fan theory that surfaced on the internet in 2013. And it resurfaces occasionally and circulates wildly. And that is that the weird flying car is actually Sandy rising into heaven. Because she drowned. Yes, she went. When? Yes,

Michelle Newman 1:17:28

Mmm hmm. And the ocean and Australia. Yes. No, no,

Kristin Nilsen 1:17:32

in the beginning when so here's how the theory began. The theory began. Well, hold on, let me finish the whole theory. Okay, so she drowned. Right? And the entire movie is a fantasy sequence taking place during her coma. Oh police ending with her death at the end of the movie when they rise into heaven in the flying car. So this is how it began. So it comes from summer lovin he says I saved her life. She nearly drowned in the theory says that Danny didn't save her life. She died. And this is like her life flashing before her eyes with this added dose of wish fulfillment.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:18:12

Okay, there now. Are they like queueing on people to or something? Working for me at all? How could you meet? I don't even where do you begin with how ridiculous that seems? Oh, no. Because he's in the car, too. So did he die too? When they're right is

Kristin Nilsen 1:18:33

he just haven't?

Carolyn Cochrane 1:18:34

Oh, yeah. That maybe he's really the teenager they both drowned he drowned?

Kristin Nilsen 1:18:39

Well try is trying to say is that just you know, because of course the theory is lock stock and barrel. It's like you don't get to choose what your theory is. The theory is that she is dead. It is sound was dead.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:18:51

Yeah, I can't, I could almost buy that they're both dead. Right? And they're having like one of those moments where they're looking down. And you know, this is what could have happened. If we hadn't drowned if

Kristin Nilsen 1:19:02

we hadn't drowned under the dock. We should not have been making out under the dock. That was a mistake that

Michelle Newman 1:19:07

makes the whole movie like if I believed that I wouldn't like the movie as much it would be like it would be like such a visible interval popping the balloon like wait, what none of that really happened. Like, I just watched this whole movie and none of that sort of like when you watch the sixth sense for the first time. I feel like them flying off in the car though. While I definitely was like this is weird. This is odd. I definitely went with it. I was like it's the carnival. It's fun. I mean, my gosh, the scene right before that where they're singing We go together is just so happy. You can't help but just feeling like oh my god. This is the font. I want to be part of that. This is so fun. I want to do you

Kristin Nilsen 1:19:44

think your last day of school would be like that, like you wanted it to be? My last day of high school would be that way. Yes.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:19:49

Yeah. I had the Amelia Bedelia in me was alive and well because I realized watching this that I thought forever are like, okay, they met on vacation. Because to me, and tell me if I'm wrong here, that, really the beach was very near to where they lived maybe. And so she was visiting, and he was just living out a summer life, but in my mind, because who actually lives by a beach like that, and it has a life like, that's where you go on vacation. So I thought they both were on vacation, they met, all of a sudden, she's not moving to Australia, but she's like back in New Jersey, or Oklahoma or wherever they live. And oh, my gosh, she goes to high school, where she is now living and going like, I cannot, I was so phenomenal to me that she was living there and the high school that she was going to happen to be the one that he was going to, but it wasn't anywhere near where they met. It's actually really

Kristin Nilsen 1:20:49

helpful for me, like if that were true, that would be very helpful for me, because one thing I've never been able to get over is that they have this fiery romance for the whole summer. And she just neglected to tell him that she wasn't going back to Australia. And he just neglected to tell her where he went to high school. Right. And that they she didn't know where he went to school.

Michelle Newman 1:21:09

I thought she says their plans changed. And they didn't move back to Australia. I thought it was all summer he thought Yeah.

Kristin Nilsen 1:21:18

So why didn't she tell him?

Michelle Newman 1:21:20

I thought maybe after they left, she didn't know. She didn't. She didn't know what to buy.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:21:27

I don't know, did she just think I'm

Kristin Nilsen 1:21:29

confused? No, but he lives there. Like, why would I just call him up and say, hey, guess what, we're not going back to Australia, we can still make out under the dock.

Michelle Newman 1:21:37

Because he didn't give her his phone number because it was 1952. And she thinks

Carolyn Cochrane 1:21:41

there was potential that she meet him at the high school that's near the beach. If we lived there. It's

Kristin Nilsen 1:21:48

going home. That means I have the even if I don't have his phone number, if I'm not going to go home, I still have that potential of making out under the dock with Danny. Even if she doesn't know where he goes to high school. I wonder if he goes to high school at this place where I'm going because I'm in the same exact place where I was this summer. Oh, I thought they

Michelle Newman 1:22:07

were both on like Carolina. I think that's what you just said. I thought they were both away from their homes. I thought they were both on vacation. Yeah.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:22:16

Well, and I think that goes again to maybe where like you've lived in California, Kristen, so you knew there? Well, you did too, maybe alone with it. But there couldn't be a beach. Yeah, okay. You could live your regular life by the beach. That did not enter my head at all. The beach was a destination for a vacation. Nobody had a regular life by the ocean. Nobody went to high school by the beach. That's just

Kristin Nilsen 1:22:38

where you went on vacation. Right? So they were not fazed by the beach. Right.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:22:43

And so yeah, that's what happened. They met on vacation wherever on the beach in LA and then they're going back to high school in Pennsauken, New Jersey. And lo they're just at the same high school, which I thought was like, Oh my gosh, what are the odds?

Kristin Nilsen 1:22:57

But my God now I know so funny. Okay, are we good? Should I bring it on home? Yes,

Carolyn Cochrane 1:23:03

but I do want to say I still love

Michelle Newman 1:23:05

it. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, Carolyn. I was gonna say that listen, all the things that bothered me about it even at age nine and it still bothered me about it today. Don't are never diminished. Its greatness and importance for me because I knew then and I know now. It's just a movie. Like I was never going to take my life lessons from it. No matter if I felt that cardigan Sandy would never turn into carnival Sandy so quickly and confidently. And that was so unbelievable to me. I still thought it was great. I never thought oh, then I have to do that. I mean, I always knew that these were just this was make believe I wasn't you know, an idiot. I knew

Carolyn Cochrane 1:23:46

a car. But it was

Michelle Newman 1:23:47

just so great. Like it never it never diminished the importance that movie had on me and how much I loved it. Yeah, I mean, it's a huge part of our childhood. Yes,

Carolyn Cochrane 1:23:59

exactly. Absolutely, too.

Kristin Nilsen 1:24:02

And so wacky theories and wacky endings aside. Yeah, let's just bring it full circle. So why was it that we kids were so thrilled with Sandy's new look, except for Michelle? Yeah, no, we were. We were so excited for her. We didn't. We didn't know what slut shaming was right. As children. We didn't know slut shaming is a thing. We only saw this as a breaking out of her shell and we thought she was authentically beautiful. We were celebrating her Liberation when I say we maybe I should say I I was celebrating her liberation. And then we grow up and society does a number on us and teaches us to judge women's sexual history based on their clothing. Haha. So I'm going to give everyone permission no matter where you stand on Carnival, Sandy and cardigan Sandy. I'm going to give everyone permission to sort of just like Michelle said, we're just gonna lay down the worry about the messages in Greece because this movie isn't going anywhere. It only gets more popular, and someday we'll get the opportunity. I can't even live I'm gonna say that This but someday we might share it with our grandchildren.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:25:02

I was thinking that too, right? So

Kristin Nilsen 1:25:05

really what we're seeing in Greece is a teenager trying on a different persona, which is really what adolescence is all about. We're not sure who we are. There's a lot of experimenting that goes along that with that and we should all be given the freedom to experiment in one way or the other. If you are a smoker and you want to wear a cardigan, you should definitely try that. Right? You should be allowed to do that. And you should even be allowed to be sexual safely and with agency Please

Michelle Newman 1:25:32

don't hurt anybody or yourself or anybody.

Kristin Nilsen 1:25:36

But you go carnival Sandy, we are proud of you. And just like Frankie Valli says, we take the pressure and we throw away conventionality belongs to yesterday, there is a chance that we can make it so far. If we start believing now that we can be who we are. Grease is the word. Thanks for listening today, and we look forward to being with you again next week.

Michelle Newman 1:26:05

In the meantime, let's raise our glasses for a toast to cardigan Sandy,

Carolyn Cochrane 1:26:11

to carnival Sandy

Kristin Nilsen 1:26:12

to Olivia Newton John. We love you. Cheers. Cheers.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:31

What I intend to do

Kristin Nilsen 1:26:45

the information opinions and comments expressed on the pop culture Preservation Society podcast belongs solely to Carolyn the crush ologists and hello Newman, and are in no way representative of our employers or affiliates. And though we truly believe we are always right, there's always a first time the PCPs is written produced and recorded in Minneapolis, Minnesota Home of the fictional w j m studios and our beloved Mary Richards Nananana. Keep on truckin and may the Force be with you. Something always happens