Andrew McCarthy’s Brat Pack Unpacked: Let’s Talk About “BRATS”

Kristin Nilsen 0:01

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Carolyn Cochrane 0:53

I was going to be Debbie celibate. I was going to live in Chicago. My boyfriend was going to play softball on the shores of Lake Michigan. I was going to be you have this deep voice and really cute overall. The overall sound like we're saying, Come on get

will make you

Kristin Nilsen 1:21

welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society. The podcast for people born in the big wheel generation who knew that according to Breakfast Club rules, they were either a brain an athlete, a basket case, a princess or a criminal.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:37

We believe our Gen X childhoods gave us unforgettable songs, stories, characters and images. And if we don't talk about them, they'll disappear like Marshall will and Holly on a routine expedition.

Michelle Newman 1:48

And today, we are gathering for an emergency meeting of the pop culture Preservation Society to save our generations Rat Pack as featured and Andrew McCarthy's new and highly buzzworthy documentary brats.

Carolyn Cochrane 2:02

I'm Carolyn. I'm Kristen.

Michelle Newman 2:04

And I'm Michelle and we are your pop culture preservationists.

Kristin Nilsen 2:29

Welcome, everybody to this emergency episode of the pop culture Preservation Society. As you know we are on hiatus right now while we reissue a series of summer reruns for you supersized with all new conversations. But something happened on June 13. That necessitated this disruption of our summer hiatus. And that is that Andrew McCarthy's documentary brats was released, in which he explores his role in the so called Brat Pack and tracked down his Brat Pack compatriots, some of whom he hadn't seen for more than 30 years to get their take on the whole phenomenon. And shortly after the doc was released, and by shortly I mean, like that day, Carolyn sent a message to Michelle and me saying that people were reaching out to us wanting our take on the film. People wanted to talk about it badly.

Carolyn Cochrane 3:18

Oh, my gosh, they shorted you guys, these messages started coming in kind of fast and furiously. And what I found the most interesting was we would get one and it would be praising the doc like, Have you guys seen it? Oh, you need to watch it. And we need to talk about it was so great. And then the very next message would be about how much somebody hated it and how disappointed they were, our followers seems split on their view of this film. And I found that so interesting, because I thought really, truly, if anyone was going to love a doc about the Brat Pack, it was going to be our followers right?

Michelle Newman 3:50

So quickly.

Carolyn Cochrane 3:51

So these wildly different point of views were very perplexing to me. And I knew that we needed to discuss this right. So like you said, Kristen, I reached out to you right away. And as Kristen also just said, we're on hiatus right now we're kind of giving each other a break and, you know,

Michelle Newman 4:08

giving each other a break from each other. Yes,

Carolyn Cochrane 4:11

definitely. Definitely that. And so I thought I'm maybe going to have to convince you guys to do this recording, but I knew I really wanted to. And so I prefaced my request saying something like you guys, it'd be a really quick episode. No research, kind of like PCPs light. So for other episodes this summer, we're being referred to as supersize we could make this one bite sized, you know, quick and easy. Well, gals right. I have a lot of feelings about this stock, and today's episode is going to be far from a little bite sized conversation.

Kristin Nilsen 4:50

Yeah, and for at one point, she was like, it could just be like 30 minutes. Yeah, I could talk about like, just one. Yeah, five minutes said yes. Yes. The doc for 30

Carolyn Cochrane 4:59

minutes. series on.

Michelle Newman 5:00

This is a marathon bar.

Kristin Nilsen 5:03

At one point I was carrying on two simultaneous texting conversations with people about the documentary. I was like we were doing book club about rats, and the insights that people were having via text. I mean, this is not face to face. This is just dropping these little nuggets about what they were watching. were pure gold. And I will share some of those with you today. Yeah,

Michelle Newman 5:25

I feel like what you just said, Kristen is perfect this. This could be book club, let's like kind of refer to this as book club. Because when Brian and I were watching it, it took us twice as long to watch it because we had to keep pausing it to go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, or oh, wait, what have you seen? Or what? Yeah, we had discussions throughout it. I will tell you, I was so surprised that we've I know the three of us and I know listeners, a lot of you have been looking forward to this. For months, we've been posting the trailer and everything. And so I thought it was really interesting that it wasn't what I expected. I don't know. And we'll get into that in a minute. And I think that it wasn't just this kind of light thing. So yeah, it was it took me a little bit by surprise.

Kristin Nilsen 6:07

So before getting into our reactions of the documentary, we need to start with something very basic, because the whole theme of the dock hinges on this. What did the term Brat Pack mean to you, Carolyn and Michelle? Like, what? What were your feelings about that term? And the people involved? Because the whole documentary kind of spins on this little linchpin? Yeah.

Michelle Newman 6:34

It was a cool kids table to me. You know, in 1986, it was the cool kids table. It was one I was both enamored with and hugely intimidated by, but I still wanted to sit at it. Does that make sense? Do you know what I mean? Like for example, Demi Moore scared the shit out of me. Because she was so Uber cool and gorgeous. But I wanted to be her. I for sure did not view the term brat to mean like bratty kids or to be negative ever. It was almost like a term of endearment to me. And if anything elevated those actors and their movies for me. I mean, good lord, you guys, I saw mannequin like four times. So what does that say? About how I felt about it?

Kristin Nilsen 7:18

That's a really, that's a really good point about the brat term because I also did not think it meant they were bratty. I thought they were taking Rat Pack and turning it into Brat Pack. Because these people were young brat like children, which which they were it was not a derogatory term to me.

Carolyn Cochrane 7:39

No at all.

Kristin Nilsen 7:40

These were people I aspired to be people who they were people who represented us. The their these movies were speaking to us in a way that movies hadn't spoken to teens before. Prior to the outsiders. You had movies for adults, and you had Movies For Children. And there were movies for adults that teens liked and enjoyed. And there were even movies with teens in them, but they were for adults, and maybe teens enjoy them. Exactly. These were the first ones that spoke directly to us. So this was our rat pack. And it meant to me, we dominated the culture now pay attention to us. And our stories matter. So to me, Brat Pack was something that I felt like you said, Michelle, it was an A term that elevated them.

Carolyn Cochrane 8:26

Yeah. And for me, it wasn't even about the people as much as it was like a brand. It was a lifestyle. And I'll go so far as to say I don't know that I wanted to be the individual like the real Demi Moore. I wanted to be Debbie Sullivan, I wanted to be some of these characters that these people portrayed. I mean, that was aspirational for me. I mean, you guys, I was going to be Debbie celibate. I was going to live in Chicago, my boyfriend was going to play softball on the shores of Lake Michigan. I was going to be you have this deep voice and really cute overalls. I mean, that was me and then I was going to morph into she's having a baby and I was going to be you know, Elizabeth McGovern and you know, my husband was going to be an ad exec because we've graduated from the shores of Lake Michigan for example the now our house isn't very far from Michigan. Anyway, it was this aspirational lifestyle brand that I wanted to have but more as portrayed in the films these people were in and not I'm not going to be going and doing coke at you know, studio 54 or whatever. So it was more again to your point like these young people living what I thought was going to be this really cool life and and for me, you know, we are talking college and right after kind of that yuppie world kind of a thing. So, for me, that's how I identified ratpack kind of as a all encompassing lifestyle. Yes. Yeah.

Michelle Newman 9:53

And I think that's a good point to differentiate the them as real people and them as their characters be. Because certainly I I'm right with you, Carolyn. That's how it was for me when I said I kind of wanted to be domain more. I kind of wanted to be her and the different movies. I certainly wanted to be Molly Ringwald in different movies. I wanted to be Ally Sheedy with the little pearls and the cute oh, my gosh, and Mary Winningham. I loved her too. And, yes, in real life, when you'd see things they were doing, it kind of scared me because you know, I'm this guy. And also at the same time, I'm only in what 11th grade, maybe 10th 11th grade. And I think what something Andrew McCarthy says, towards the end of the documentary is exactly it's exactly what you just said and what we're talking about. He's he realizes that we were the avatars of that moment, in our lives. And by our I mean us. Yes, yes, people listening. And so I think that that's exactly what it was. They were the they were the avatars for us, right?

Kristin Nilsen 10:47

Yeah. Avatars is a great word, because it was very much about the characters and the situations that the characters were in. That's what was speaking to us. Truthfully, I wasn't following them in their real lives. That's not what I was looking at. I was looking at their characters in the movies. And that's where all the honesty was. Right. That's what made us feel seen and validated. And they were nice to look at. Let's be honest, let's

Michelle Newman 11:11

be honest. Yeah. So different, right? Yes. Really? Yeah. About the mind

Carolyn Cochrane 11:17

your you could find your person. I mean, you could, you know, love the Andrew McCarthy or maybe it's the Tom Cruise or maybe it's the Judd Nelson and breakfast. I mean, you could, you could definitely find your person or the ones you related to in terms of like, yeah, I probably was more of the Elizabeth McGovern, the Ally Sheedy with girls. Yeah.

Michelle Newman 11:38

Yeah. So I say that all the time. Because, you know, it's known to you guys and probably to a lot of our longtime listeners, how I feel about current Rob Lowe, right. I mean, I put him I put him on a picture of me with him on my Christmas card several years ago, for goodness sake. But people will say, Well, did you love him back in like, 1985 86? You give his posters all over your wall? And I always say, No, I had Andrew McCarthy. It's because Rob Lowe was so unattainable for little, you know, 17 year old Michelle, but Andrew McCarthy seemed. I feel like I feel like he might like me. Rob

Kristin Nilsen 12:13

Lowe is almost too beautiful, beautiful, beautiful to be believed. Yes. And he still is. This is true. This is all really important, because the entire documentary is based upon wait for it. The damage that this term did to Andrew McCarthy, both professionally and emotionally. I would say more so emotionally, for sure. I agree. And he is seeking to bring some closure to this event that happened so long ago, the bad feelings he had were for a variety of reasons, but primarily because of where the term came from, which we as young adults, were actually not privy to, because we were children and not grown up intellectuals. Yeah,

Michelle Newman 12:56

right, exactly. In the dark. So in the dark, we learned that the source of Andrew McCarthy's 35 years of angst, and I would say trauma to a certain extent is for sure, was the June 10 1985 New York Post article written by David Blum called Hollywood's Brat Pack. And the tag to that title is there Rob Amelio, Sean Tom Judd and the rest. The young movie stars you can't quite keep straight, which I love, because that's so true. But they're already rich and famous. They're what kids want to see and what kids want to be. Which call me crazy, you guys, but that seems like a nice statement. That seems like a supportive statement. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Andrew McCarthy, who, by the way, is only mentioned briefly in the article in the fifth to last last paragraph. Truly, it's one sentence one sentence

Carolyn Cochrane 13:50

Oh, my gosh, but that one's he's

Michelle Newman 13:53

lived. Yeah, well, but he has lived the past 35 years, basically trying to overcome all the negativity and career sinking agitations that in his opinion, lumps article spewed in the direction of this exclusive bunch, who according to Blum also includes Matt Dillon, Timothy Hutton, Tom Cruise, Nicolas Cage, and Sean Penn, some of who I don't think of as ratpack. No, I would not include that wasn't that's gonna be an interest. I want us to talk about that in a minute. Who did we always think of because I don't know that there's a right or wrong answer, but I don't think so. Andrew McCarthy even says and this documentary, the article made me feel like I lost control of the narrative of my career. And I should mention, it's the club name that beloved coined, he's the one who's responsible for coining Brat Pack. And that's what seems to be the catalyst to this decades long noose around Andrew McCarthy's neck.

Kristin Nilsen 14:49

Yeah, it really does. And just did you guys have any idea that this article even existed? Did you know before this before watching this documentary as as a 17 year Did you know that there was an article

Michelle Newman 15:03

17? I'm going to say no, I certainly have read it as like maybe in my 20s or I certainly, it started coming out or maybe even later than that, but 17 No,

Carolyn Cochrane 15:12

no, I wouldn't have certainly read it. But I know I knew that cover. Because I think lots of times like when they were on the Phil Donahue show or something, they'd always flash that cover of New York Magazine, because the cover of the magazine with this issue or this article, which by the way, was supposed to be not like a feature article or anything like that. But anyway, so they were on the cover. And that I think, was the thing that that probably I remember, but had I hadn't read the article, we weren't the audience for the art. This

Kristin Nilsen 15:42

was written for adults. Exactly. And we were not those people. nor were we getting that magazine in Minnesota. Exactly.

Carolyn Cochrane 15:49

I mean, it was a very specific niche audience, I would think for New York Magazine.

Michelle Newman 15:54

Interesting, you guys. I never thought about that. We weren't the audience for this yet. But the people that were reading this are in their What 30s 40s and are now in there.

Carolyn Cochrane 16:03

And the people have had some power probably over these people's careers in terms of you know, there might have been some casting agents and some directors and producers and those kind of people reading this article. I'm just gonna say right now, I could do a whole episode on just this article. Just racing, I'm so have such No,

Michelle Newman 16:24

I want to ask you this, Carolyn. So now so listeners we all just reread the article before coming on to record. Carolyn, if you were in the Brat Pack, would you take offense to this article?

Carolyn Cochrane 16:38

Yes, I would. And to I do want to preface everything with I really do think that if you are watching this documentary reading this article is super important. I think you need to know this foundation. And I would venture to say that not a lot of people have done that. They don't actually

Kristin Nilsen 16:58

in the documentary they don't actually say what is in the articles they never do.

Carolyn Cochrane 17:04

That's why I am so glad to have this platform because yes, I thought it was extremely derogatory from it to me turned on a dime from that little intro you read just a second ago, Michelle to once you get into the article, David refers to these journalist Yes, the journalist, the writer of this piece, refers to these actors throughout the article as young boys and girls, he never ever rice young boys. And I didn't know this until watching the documentary. So he says these brat packers are 25 and younger. Okay. David says in the documentary, he's 29 At the time he hates us. So reading this article, knowing he's only a few years older, but acting like he's some been around the block mature middle aged man who's seen it all and can like reflect on these kids, young boys and girls. Lifestyles because he's so much older and mature. Well, that's a bunch of bullshit. Okay, yeah, four years older. He is let's face it, probably no offense, David, but you're probably a poor struggling journalist right now, who might be a little bit P owed that these guys are, you know, getting all the limelight.

Kristin Nilsen 18:18

He doesn't hide it very well.

Michelle Newman 18:21

He does not see I have a chip on his shoulder girdle. Yes, a little place of ants comes from a little place some paragraphs and some of his words come from definitely come from a little place of envy. And, and and just following them around all night. And like basically as sinners, you know, he's following them around all night. So he makes sure to include the Playboy playmates that they're going home with and, and maybe someone's going into the back kitchen of the restaurant for we don't know what, wink

Kristin Nilsen 18:51

wink. And there's a condescension about all of it, when in actuality, what he was describing to me was a rather mundane night in the lives of young Hollywood men in their early 20s. In the 80s. In the 80s. Yeah, there was nothing out of the ordinary at all. Are they dumb and stupid? Yeah.

Carolyn Cochrane 19:12

Are they are they're pretty prefrontal cortex.

Michelle Newman 19:16

Does even actually mention, you know, Rob Lowe is getting hit on and maybe flirting a little bit, go at 1130 goes back to his apartment that he shares with Melissa Gilbert. You know, so it's all you're right. It's all just kind of not wanting to be right.

Carolyn Cochrane 19:32

But think of this you guys because up until this documentary, when I learned that he's 29. When he writes this article I'm envisioning, it's like a dad following them around, right and kind of writing from that perspective as, oh, these kids look what they're doing. You know, we're not he could be their peer.

Kristin Nilsen 19:49

And I know what it was here Lynch. i This is what it sounded like to me. He sounded like somebody in high school, looking down on the people in junior high school. Huh, Riley, you're just a few years apart, but you're on the varsity, you know, the varsity football team and here comes a little pipsqueaks from junior high,

Carolyn Cochrane 20:09

and they're making the varsity team. I think that's what maybe yes, they're taking your spot on the varsity team. Now we're Yes, obviously, making our own assumptions, which I love to do. I think we also have to remember he's, he, as a journalist has to write to the audience of New York Magazine. So I don't think he should have been writing this article. Probably he shouldn't have been the person to write it, because I think we get that condescending tone through it. But we only I see that now. Now that I know he was 29. But he's not going to write it to people like us, like, Oh, this is just a normal night out for a bunch of 20 something years. That's true, including myself who's writing for New York Magazine. So I think that put a whole different spin on for me age who Yeah, yes. Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, and all of that. So I did think it was very scathing, and derogatory just the word choice. He uses things like these famous young stars were on the prowl for parties, women and a good time. I mean, who thinks of on the prowl is, you know, that seems kind of a little sinister. And also,

Kristin Nilsen 21:13

raise your hand if you weren't on the prowl? I'm raising my hand right now. I was definitely on the prowl. Right?

Michelle Newman 21:20

And, you know, it's not all listeners, if you haven't read it yet. The article isn't all just about following them around. Right. According to the documentary, this was originally intended to be an article really just profiling Emilio esta vez. And then it turned into they all were there when he went to the Hard Rock Cafe, right. And I'm sure one of you guys are I'm sure we will discuss this coming up when we start to talk about the documentary about how Emilio esta vez feels 35 years later about this, and what he feels like it's done for his career, but in defense, a little bit of David Blum, which I don't know that I really feel like I need to do but I just wanted to point it out. If we're talking about all the things that we don't like about the article, I will say David Blum does say things like this about Amelia west of us, he says, but the Bret packers are smart. And esta vez perhaps the smartest of all recognizes that recognizes that with his fame and fortune comes a responsibility to preserve them. So he works hard at his profession, building a substantial resume of acting credits to keep them going. He goes on to talk about his career. He talks about that he wrote a screenplay called clear intent. It wasn't his first screenplay, he makes sure to mention that his first screenplay was an adaptation of the SE Hinton novel called that was then this is Mr. Dude, which was renewed who's

Carolyn Cochrane 22:42

gonna go look it up? I'm like, Oh my gosh, that was such a new moment for me.

Kristin Nilsen 22:45

I sure we read that ninth grade. I was struggling a little

Michelle Newman 22:48

bit because he did. There's nothing wrong. Next. That's actually kind of a glowing

Carolyn Cochrane 22:54

sentences. Is was that

Michelle Newman 22:56

well, it's a big paragraph, and then it goes and then it goes right into, and then it goes right. At one round table in the middle of the room said a group of boys who seemed to exude a magnetic force, as the boys toasted each other and chug to their bar was very hard for years. Yeah, the prettiest of the girls would find some excuse to walk by the table. And they would i The boys as Ligori Ling gloriously as they possibly could, hoping for an invitation to join them. The boys knew they had this force, and they started back with equal vigor. So yes, that's where they see that's where I see his the little chip on his shoulder, not getting ever getting pretty girls to

Kristin Nilsen 23:35

Friday night at any college bar. Exactly.

Michelle Newman 23:37

And

Carolyn Cochrane 23:37

I want to also say that, of course, he had to write at least a nice one nice paragraph about Emilio. The publicist was probably like, we're not going to sign off on this. This was supposed to be about Amelia, where the whole first big part of it is all about Rob Lowe. I mean, you wouldn't even know this was meant to be a feature kind of about Emilio so thank you for writing that. He goes on to I'm sorry, David, if we'd love to have you on because I have a bone to pick on you. Because the way he labels I mean, he you know, label worse the overweighted one as preacher Nelson the pretty one. I mean, who are you? You're 20.

Kristin Nilsen 24:11

He's basically name calling. It was very juvenile. He gives each one of them a derogatory name like yeah, the pretty one, the overrated one the so he

Michelle Newman 24:21

doesn't care. You guys. Ironically, he does exactly what the Breakfast Club tried to debunk, right. Yes.

Kristin Nilsen 24:27

Yeah, that's right. He did it. That's exactly right. I mean, yeah.

Carolyn Cochrane 24:31

After reading this article, and then watching the documentary, I can feel why Andrew McCarthy had such strong feelings because as you just said, Michelle, he's not really mentioned in the entire article except for this one. Really line in a way and I'm going to read it to you guys because I think it really says a lot.

Kristin Nilsen 24:53

This is the therapeutic moment right here. Once you read this line, Carolyn, it's almost like we see why Andrew McCarthy had to go on a journey. Oh my gosh. And you can see how when you were at an impressionable age, when you hear this line, it lodges in your heart, and it becomes a trauma, and it grows. And then when you're 59 years old, you have to make a documentary. Exactly.

Carolyn Cochrane 25:16

And so I think this movie, or this documentary is much more than about the Brett Brett pack. So the article doesn't name Andrew McCarthy is one of the Brat Pack that originals that you were mentioning before. The one reference to Andrew McCarthy is pretty awful. It's a quote from an unnamed co star from St. Alamos fire, which I'm pretty sure as Judd Nelson, about I thought it was Emilio. Oh, I think it's probably just maybe, I don't know, I don't know, that's interesting. Here is the quote. And this is referring to Andrew McCarthy, he plays all of his roles with too much of the same intensity. I don't think he'll make it. That's the That's the line you guys. And that's the only direct reference to Andrew McCarthy in the entire article. So no wonder he has some big feelings about it. Like why did the writer even have to include that? Right? What Yes, what? It's almost like he wanted to throw these actors under the bus like, Oh, you think, you know, they're so great. Well, listen, they're ready to backstab.

Kristin Nilsen 26:18

And at that age, think about it speaks to more than just the content of that line. It also speaks to the idea of everybody's worst fear, which is everybody's talking about me.

Carolyn Cochrane 26:30

Right, which is probably David blooms worst fear. Yes.

Kristin Nilsen 26:34

That's why he did it. That's why he did it. That's exactly how I did it. Yeah. And then Oh, my God, and it well, John Andrew McCarthy. Yeah. It appears that one of his biggest complaints about them is that they are not paying their dues. And he he references people like Robert De Niro and Marlon Brando, and, and all of the work that they put into their craft, and how these people just appear on the scene, having done nothing. And now there's all this fame and fortune that is following them. But number one, they're playing high schoolers. So they have not really had enough time. Thank you. They're not grownups. They're playing high schoolers. It's not that they came on the scene and became famous. Just in general, they needed people to play the high schoolers, so they were plucked from obscurity or from wherever. But then this is so condescending, he really goes after them by saying, no one has even gone to college. So elitist? And also how many famous people in Hollywood Do you know who've gone to college?

Carolyn Cochrane 27:47

And why does that even matter? You guys, listeners, I want to tell you, Kristen has given me some of the best advice in the last week, and I wrote it down for reference to this exact point. There is more than one right way to get to where you want to go. There is not one clear path. There's right what right ways for different people for different reasons. So for him to kind of suggest that by not going to college, they're less than Okay, so Tatum O'Neal shouldn't have won an Academy Award for Paper Moon because, oh,

Kristin Nilsen 28:21

she only got nine. Yeah, or whatever. I

Carolyn Cochrane 28:24

mean, talk about Nepo. Baby. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's condescending, he couldn't have his career. Back in the 80s. You couldn't have been a journalist without having gone to college today. But back then you were you and maybe even had to go to graduate school to get gigs with things like New York Magazine. So again, I think there's this deep seated, kind of jealousy and you know, almost wanting to say, well, they can go to college. So why should they get money? And that's exactly what he says, is

Kristin Nilsen 28:54

if you cannot be a talented actor without having graduated from the Yale Drama School, which is just a handful of people,

Michelle Newman 29:04

are you not privileged enough to be able to go to these schools, and we've all

Kristin Nilsen 29:09

seen Barry, we know you can be a studied actor. without going to college. There are ways to study acting without being a college student. It's incredibly elitist and excluding and also not super realistic. And

Carolyn Cochrane 29:23

Marlon Brando go to college.

Kristin Nilsen 29:25

I don't think I want to, like come on, do we really think Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro, let's

Michelle Newman 29:30

check at the end of the episode. Yeah,

Kristin Nilsen 29:32

I don't take a day because also that was another era in which most people didn't go to college. It's so frustrating. Yeah. I also have to add that when he when he refers to boys, as Carolyn says, It's so very overt it's so he might as well have put it in quotation marks because it's boys throughout the entire thing. Never in the entire article, or any when been mentioned and yet we all include Demi Moore and Ali Shimon. Yeah. And they're and they're interviewed in the documentary as part of the Brat Pack. They're not included in the article. It is never mentioned. They know he doesn't even say girls, it's all about the boys. Yeah.

Carolyn Cochrane 30:19

And then you know, let's the credit we can give this man is he coined the phrase Brat Pack and it was nice as I think we'll talk about in the documentary I think Rob Lowe says it it's nice to kind of have this collective noun to kind of refer to as for me, it was like a brand a lifestyle it's so easy to say the rat pattern for that so for I think I'm speaking for a lot of Gen Xers when I think it's much more than this you know, small article that it just happened to give us this great term that sounded good and got to just kill a bunch of birds with one stone we don't have to name all the names we can say, you know, the guys in the bread pack or the gals in the rat pack so well

Michelle Newman 30:59

and to your point about not being females mentioned a lot of the movies we associate with the dummy mores and Ally Sheedy and Molly Ringwald hadn't come out yet I mean 16 candles have certainly but like pretty I'm paying saying almost fire those hadn't been released when this movie or when this article came out right almost fire was about to be released. Pretty in Pink wouldn't be released till the next Breakfast

Carolyn Cochrane 31:19

Club was out though right Breakfast Club was

Kristin Nilsen 31:21

out. Yes, we have Ally Sheedy and Molly Ringwald there, colluded with that his insecurity speak to that because he wouldn't feel intimidated by the women. He would only feel intimidated by them in.

Michelle Newman 31:32

He also then goes on to say because it's Emilio esta vez listeners who leaves with a Playboy Playmate. He goes on to say he's five, six kind of stock blow and I reading it just as a 55. Six Milio estimate

Kristin Nilsen 31:53

that's a that is a man thing to go after somebody for their height, because I'm just like, Okay, I'm only five feet tall. But still, I'm not looking at somebody's height I'm looking at if they're cute and nice. He's really cute. We liked Emilio estimates. We weren't saying How tall are you? But it's a man who would say, Well, I'm better because I'm taller.

Carolyn Cochrane 32:13

And I mean, he didn't tell us anybody else's height. It's like he's gonna pick on the one that's maybe a little shorter. And, gosh, he's got to find some way to get him. I'm sorry, David, you need to come on this podcast you need to get

Michelle Newman 32:26

I don't want to I don't like conflict. I'll just, I'll

Kristin Nilsen 32:30

just well, and we'll talk about the journalist more because when we talk about the documentary, because there that is we'll get to that. Okay. Well, yeah, for that. Let's go. Okay, so let's, let's get to the documentary itself. Are you are you good, Carolyn? Or do you have more things? Okay, great. Okay, there is that but you're right. We could devote an entire episode just to this article alone, because I still have tons of notes I can throw in

Michelle Newman 32:52

there. listeners. How much do you love this version of Carolyn? I'm sorry. I don't know about you, Kristen. But when we have when we have discussions where Carolyn gets fired up like this, I just love this. Carolyn, thank

Carolyn Cochrane 33:05

you. Your work. Give me something to get fired up about. It's my justice sensitivity. That's right. The quality of my ad. It's her diagnosis, just

Kristin Nilsen 33:13

a sensitivity.

Michelle Newman 33:14

Why don't we get into the documentary you guys?

Kristin Nilsen 33:33

Let's discuss the documentary I this is the thing that came to me. This is my overall impression. As a psychology major, I loved every minute of this documentary. I did. It was so it was not about the Brat Pack. It was not about the individuals. It was about the trauma that Andrew McCarthy has carried with him and how he's trying to deal with it, and other people's perspectives on that trauma and what he should do with it. And I'm like, oh,

Michelle Newman 34:04

yeah, it's, it's, and I'm gonna come full circle and what I'm going to say to how I started it, and how I how I got to the end, but I feel like I need to begin by saying how thrilling it was for me to watch this doc and just simply see all of these people that we loved chatting right and hugging each other and being happy to see each other. You guys they haven't seen each other for one reason or another in decades. And I loved it. I just can't Can

Carolyn Cochrane 34:32

we just stop there for a second to say I think that's probably I don't want to speak for you guys. But some of the stuff I've been reading I think a lot of people had the assumption that their pals like they either yes, exactly. Like they you know each other's birthdays and graduations and all of that. Yeah. So when he's saying I haven't seen, you know, Rob Lowe in over 30 years. I'm thinking how on earth is that even possible? So I think our minds are blown. At least mine was an out of the gate thinking You're trying to you know, hope they answer your phone call, but I'm already thinking you're the best man in their wedding. This is this is really first

Kristin Nilsen 35:08

thinking of them as their characters

Michelle Newman 35:09

well as seeing some of them together and I'll get to that in a minute but seeing some of them together and they're like almost very formal with each other. And I'm like, No, you guys your best friends or whatever I Yeah. But I also want to remind you guys and everyone listening how much I loved Andrew McCarthy and 1986 How much of my life reliving the library scene and Pretty in Pink took up except of course with me in the study corral instead of Molly Ringwald, obviously, you guys are looking at me like you don't remember that scene. No,

Kristin Nilsen 35:41

no. Stopping to corral Oh, you say corral this

Michelle Newman 35:45

steady? Oh, what is it steady? Carol?

Kristin Nilsen 35:48

Not a Steve Carell. No, I

Michelle Newman 35:51

said corral. See Oh Ral, isn't it? No, we

Carolyn Cochrane 35:55

call it keranique. Carol's Oh, we

Michelle Newman 35:57

study like a study crowd. I'll just say, like a corral. Yeah. Because of the way it's spelled to I think that's so funny. Okay, so except with me in the study cube. But that being said, I'm just going to be really honest that watching this documentary, I sometimes felt like this weight that Andrew McCarthy has been carrying for 35 years, was a bit too heavy. And I sometimes it's sometimes made it a little dramatic for me to watch. However, having said that, I would never judge or minimize someone else's trauma. That is a big, big no for me. So even though at times I kind of wanted to say like not man, I had to respect that this weight he's been carrying has been heavy for him personally, and affected his life in ways I can't understand. In fact, he says in the documentary that this article affected how I perceived myself for many years. So he's honest about this being a personal issue. Yeah, that he needs to explore. And so I was then able to view this documentary as a healing process for him. And, and a personal note, I can relate to that because as we've talked about, in a couple of episodes, I carried this kind of good girl stigma with me my whole life and a lot of people probably were like, lighten up or oh my god, get over it, get over yourself. Nobody else can minimize how heavy that was for me until I was probably about 50. And was like, you know, just gave no fucks basically right what people are thinking of me. But so I started when I would start to get like, oh my god, geez, really like, again, I would think Hold on. This is his personal weight, his personal journey, and I can't, I can't expect to judge that. Really. I can't I can't judge that. And I think through his conversations, especially with pretty pink and St. Almost fired producer Lauren Shuler. Donner is her name loved her. And Demi Moore and with the delightfully charming. Rob Lowe, I hope one of him we're gonna talk about him in a minute.

Carolyn Cochrane 38:16

Just take a moment.

Michelle Newman 38:19

Just pause. Andrew McCarthy seems to come to realize that a lot of the resentment and the defensiveness he's been carrying was due to Christian what you've brought up a couple times already, basically, to age and immaturity. And he's able to begin to see this label of ratpack in a different light by the end and through these conversations. So, in my opinion, this journey he took was successful. I don't know. Oh,

Carolyn Cochrane 38:43

sure. In the movie, I mean, the doc

Kristin Nilsen 38:45

Yeah. You do feel like when he gets to the end of the documentary, a load has been lightened. And one reason that he carried that load for so long, is precisely because he wasn't in contact with these other people. He was living in a vacuum in which he thought his experience was the truth. When in actuality, when he goes to Jimmy Moore's house, Demi Moore has had a lot of therapy. My gosh,

Carolyn Cochrane 39:09

I call her Dasha, me more. Oh, Dr.

Kristin Nilsen 39:11

Jimmy she.

Michelle Newman 39:14

Okay, good. I think we're all on the same page.

Kristin Nilsen 39:17

I'm just gonna give her a round. Right now. Everyone, nice job to me.

Michelle Newman 39:22

Love you. Yeah, she

Kristin Nilsen 39:24

was able to say to him in the most loving terms. Andrew, you are seeing this entire situation through a perspective that has created your reality exam. If you could step back and look at it the way Carolyn, Kristen and Michelle see it. You would have had a different life. But it's as if he didn't know that Carolyn, Kristen and Michelle thought that the term Rat Pack was an honor. He It wasn't even like he was grappling with it. It was like he didn't he wasn't privy to that information.

Michelle Newman 39:56

Right? It it was so hurtful to him what I got out of it. was you know, and I've been reading a lot of the reviews that are first of all, I love that he's posting there's a million, well, not a million. There's a lot of really great reviews. This documentary is getting very well received by, of course, Hulu. But other places too, but Oh, wow, is it not getting well reviewed by a lot of Gen Xers. Because a lot of people are basically like stop being bratty Andrew McCarthy Oh, my God, I wrote. And but that's kind of what it is. And I, I really do think that we can't know how heavy this has been for him. And it's very evident when you're watching it, and exactly what you just said, it took him like dummy, and we'll get to Rob Lowe even to through kind of some humor and, and whatever. To change his perspective on of all of this. It's been, he's been so defensive, since 1985. That that's just been the MO right. That's been how he's gonna react to this. Well, I

Carolyn Cochrane 41:02

want to just even go a little bit deeper because the Brat Pack this article is what started it all. And that one quote that we've said earlier that the only thing about him in that entire article was basically saying that he's not going to make it. I mean, that's basically that message. And I was thinking, imagine this like you are, Kristin, you are determined, you are going to be this best, the best playwright ever this Best Dramatic playwright, and you happen to write this satirical article or something. And then you're kind of branded this satire writer and you can never be a playwright because no one looks at you as a playwright. And for somebody not that doesn't even know you to basically do this thing that maybe pivot your entire career, like, at least that's how you view it. And I think there's probably some truth to it. I, I can't imagine what how that felt to carry that forever. Like, if only if only, you know, maybe I hadn't done some a certain movie like I wouldn't have been leaked, or I wouldn't have been put into this group. Just all of that think that what he saw himself doing at this in this article kind of pivoted all of that. I just think that's got to stick with you forever, and then it does become your reality, and then we don't get planned. You know, it's because of that article, not because Oh, I didn't audition? Well, it's because of that article. And yeah, and

Kristin Nilsen 42:25

you'll notice that when he first the first person that he comes into contact the first person to return his phone call is Emilio esta vez. And they when they meet for the first time, it's very heartwarming when they hug, but then it turns chilly, right away and they're very uncomfortable with each other. I think Emilio is feeling shame for having having thrown everybody under the bus. He feels responsibility for that article, even though he's not responsibility for what that person said, No, he was just being a normal kid. And Andrew McCarthy now I'm realizing after reading the article was wondering, is Emilio, the one who said that I wasn't going to make it and I was

Carolyn Cochrane 43:04

thinking things. Okay, can we just that's why it's so important to read this article. Everybody else. See, I didn't read the article till after I watched the documentary, so that I'm almost going to need to go back and watch it now because you're so right. I hadn't thought of that part, as he's and then the fact that Judd Nelson, who I think wrote that, quote is the one who he can't ever get in touch with.

Kristin Nilsen 43:26

Yes, he's, he's a Well, yeah. Yes, well, and Molly Ringwald, too, is a little looser vase that she's allowed to be, you know, right,

Michelle Newman 43:34

exactly. I started kind of going off on a like, thought process. I started having an argument with myself, which is not unusual, like, well, Molly Ringwald also must feel really, you know, like, hurt by this article and whatever. And they they kind of say she didn't. She wasn't there because she wanted to move forward. She just wanted to go forward. Yes, but that was a mistake. She's not she's not in there to defend herself or to talk about it. So I'm just gonna respect that and she's resurgence lately

Carolyn Cochrane 44:03

with you know that Truman Capote Swan Yeah. And so she's kind of creating this career that we can no no whereby and she'd probably didn't want to bring up all this

Kristin Nilsen 44:13

stuff. I have always thought that there were certain people that were very prickly Molly wing ring while we we load always seemed quickly to me. Andrew McCarthy always seemed prickly to me. And now that I've seen this now that I know about the article I can see where Ally Sheedy also seemed prickly now I can see where some of this Brat Pack identification for them felt like not a good thing helped me with was very hurtful it was it was hurt me and they were trying to escape it. Instead of talk about it. They were trying to escape it. And again, this is all unbeknownst to us because we don't know what the hell this article is. We don't know but but it does help me understand these people a little bit better. Oh, yeah.

Michelle Newman 44:57

You know when Emilio first of all you got eyes how I was completely gobsmacked. I thought I was looking at Martin Sheen. Like his hair even is exactly Martin Sheen from the West Wing like it's crazy Reese creepy. I was gonna say creepy and crazy at the same time. It's crazy. It's crazy. But their conversation seems to focus mostly on this whole their belief that this article wrecked their careers because you know, we are labeled now we are branded and nobody's going to take us seriously. And I have a hard time with that a little bit because several of them did go on to have very illustrious careers. My husband just kept yelling. It's the good actors that kept going on. You know, he's like, it's the ones that could act. But let's not forget Andrew McCarthy did make some big Hits Weekend at Bernie's. There's a huge hit. I mean, maybe more after it came out. I'm like VHS but mannequin.

Kristin Nilsen 45:52

Well, was the highest paid she was like the first woman to get a million dollars for film, right? There's 12 wrong dollars. There's

Michelle Newman 45:59

definitely went on and Molly Ringwald didn't for a long time. Well had a comeback. Yeah. Well, Rob Lowe also had some personal some personal things that kind of, you know, marked his success. But what I was gonna say is Andrew McCarthy started directing. He directed, you know, many episodes of Gossip Girl. And what was the other one, the blacklist with James Spader, theater directing career, I felt like it was easy to use David Blum and his article as a reason for their career, their acting careers, non flourishing and maybe the same way some of the other ones did or something. And so I had a little bit of an issue with that, like, I don't know if that's the reason

Carolyn Cochrane 46:41

couldn't be self fulfilling prophecy. 110%. Like Keven said that that was like a fear. And then for it to be kind of what do I want to say affirmed in this article in saying like, yes, See, I knew what I'm not a good actor. Listen, even one of my co star said that. Nobody's

Kristin Nilsen 46:58

gonna hire me. Right? No one's gonna hire me. So I'm not gonna go to the audition. Right? People aren't gonna, that's

Carolyn Cochrane 47:04

110% I think that it was a self fulfilling prophecy. And I also think that, you know, we say we can at Bernie's and mannequin and, and this is all me reading into this, because I'm so good at this. But to me, Andrew maybe saw himself as a little bit more of a serious dramatic actor as time went on. And let's face it, mannequin is not gonna get you an Academy Award nomination or anything.

Kristin Nilsen 47:26

Right now, as much as we enjoyed them. And he's exactly yeah,

Carolyn Cochrane 47:30

but that wasn't maybe the path again, that he saw himself on. And I do also think it's important for us to say because he doesn't really ever say this in the movie. But Andrew McCarthy is a prolific writer he is so he's so great writer, so good. And much like our conversation with Shaun Cassidy, I feel like those people are lots of times more observant of the situations around them, they're more reflective. So a lot of the things that even at the time, we might have seen as kind of, I don't know, put off fish or whatever some of those adjectives are, was just Andrew being kind of very thoughtful and introspective, which in the 80s That's not what we're seeing with Rob Lowe or any of that to say that

Michelle Newman 48:14

maybe Carolyn great point because you in the documentary, you see some clips of interviews and they put Andrew McCarthy and Rob Lowe next to each other and they are apples and oranges. I mean, just their expressions you know Rob Lowe is working the interviewer he knows how to look like that and a lot of times I would have to stop it and rewind and say to my husband oh my god look how uninterested in pissed off Andrew McCarthy last right but but I also think Carolyn, you have a great point. That's his personality he's an observer I don't know that he was pissed off and uninterested he's probably just observing he's

Carolyn Cochrane 48:50

he's not comfortable in that situation in in the thing to when he runs across the street he doesn't want to see the split the screening or the premiere of now I can't remember what

Michelle Newman 49:01

sorry saying almost fire. Okay. Yes, that's right. He was afraid

Carolyn Cochrane 49:05

to to be a part of that and see the people's reactions because is this just going to confirm to him that he's not a good actor in the movie isn't good or whatever. So he goes across to a restaurant and gets drunk which I like to see do in the 80s He escaped from

Kristin Nilsen 49:20

all the happy picture taking that would normally take place after a premiere goes to hamburger Hamlet and gets

Michelle Newman 49:25

bombed you guys don't you though? I love his his character in st almost fire that kind of brooding. Always with the cigarette that Jimmy will the only

Carolyn Cochrane 49:39

as we know that guy,

Michelle Newman 49:40

will you guys just indulge me for like three minutes. So we could talk about him talking about Pretty in Pink and him sitting at a counter. The bar with Jon Cryer is freaking out like it's ducky and Blaine and they're very formal with each other. You can tell they haven't spoken since pretty and pink came out they kind of don't know. I just love how is it Lea Thompson and Jon Cryer are both like we're Brett packages.

Kristin Nilsen 50:07

Yes, right. They don't want they're not going to claim it. They're not in with both feet. They're

Michelle Newman 50:11

Lea Thompson is very honest to say he's like did you want to be and she was like hell yeah, I did. Yeah, I did. And that us, but that's exactly and that's when he one of the many light bulbs that goes off and Andrew McCarthy's journey is you did. Anyway, she's married to Howard Deutsch, who directed Pretty in Pink but Andrew McCarthy goes to Howard Deutsches house and he's so excited to see him because they haven't I don't think so You know each other so it's pretty pink. And you guys we get like Andrews perspective on the awful wig that he has to wear and that final scene and I just was I was just giddy during all that stuff. Like I stopped trying to analyze Andrew, pick apart the documentary and I just wanted to be a fan watching. Yeah. And Blaine sitting in the same room. And it was just lovely. I loved that part.

Kristin Nilsen 51:01

I agree. There was a very unusual, I think the weirdest part of the documentary was one of the people he interviewed a lot of people who weren't who were not backpackers, people who would have insight into what this phenomenon was. And you see Andrew McCarthy traveling, criss crossing the nation getting rental cars driving back roads. And at one point he says, Okay, we're on our way to Malcolm Gladwell 's house, and I'm like, Malcolm Gladwell being the author of books, like the outliers. So he's a man who studies phenomena. So I guess that's why he wants to talk to him. But still, on the one hand, I'm like, why are you going to Malcolm Gladwell house and on the other hand, I'm like, Oh, I love Malcolm Gladwell. Say you

Michelle Newman 51:43

guys very excited. I was you know, three days ago, years old when I put a face to the name Malcolm Gladwell. He looks like a Malcolm. We had to pause it just to appreciate his hair.

Unknown Speaker 51:57

I know. Yes, I know.

Michelle Newman 51:58

Oh, it is so fabulously untamed. It's a

Kristin Nilsen 52:03

little cream. It's like fuzzy creamer. Yeah,

Carolyn Cochrane 52:06

no. absent minded professor, he kind of left very,

Kristin Nilsen 52:09

very absent minded Professor stickman.

Good. And he addresses so much stress on this podcast. I

Carolyn Cochrane 52:16

know where to go. He's

Michelle Newman 52:19

yeah, let's get him on to come on TV,

Kristin Nilsen 52:21

what he we would be so in with him. He is another person who is able to raise him up who is able to raise up Andrew McCarthy by pointing out this thing that you were a part of? It will never happen again. That's right to know cult phenomenon will capture an entire generation ever again. Because there is no unifying media anymore. We Gen Xers were pretty much the last people to have a unified generation. Will generations after this point forever be fractured? Will they ever have a home team? Like don't you feel like you have a home team? Oh, my

Carolyn Cochrane 53:00

podcast. I mean, let's go on to say and I don't want to jump in. So tell me if I'm getting you off. No, go ahead. Go ahead. I was just gonna say Malcolm Gladwell has all of these kind of what I don't want scientific but these anthropologic reasons why this is so important. This collective experience we all had, and then you realize he's a Gen XOR. And all of a sudden, it doesn't matter what degrees we have, or whatever he's talking about. Pretty important. And he's talking about that he identified with Jon Cryer with Ducky,

Kristin Nilsen 53:36

ducky, Doc, man, Doc,

Michelle Newman 53:39

man, I love

Carolyn Cochrane 53:43

that, that connects us. And I think that's so amazing. It's what I love about our followers. And yeah, our podcast is that it doesn't again matter who you vote for, or what your degree is, or you know, whatever. It's like all these differences go away when we can have this collective experience of this pop culture stuff that meant something to all of us might just it was it was daisy

Kristin Nilsen 54:08

chaining, it was defining to a generation, the Brat Pack defined Gen X and Gen Z have that they might have like we always say they have High School Musical. Oh, that did not define them as a generation. I'm not sure they'll have anything. And I think it might have been Howard Deutsch. I can't remember it was somebody else that he was interviewing, who, who expanded on that and said a movie will never mean that much to anyone ever again. No single movie will ever have that much meaning to a person because we can we don't invest in movies the way we did back then you made a choice. Where are we going to go? It's a collective choice all together. What movie are we going to go see? You paid your money and you stood in line to get into that movie, and you didn't? If you if you didn't make that that investment, it would be gone, the movie wasn't around forever. If you didn't decide the movie would be gone and you would miss it. Now, you can stream or you can not stream, you can finish it or you can not finish. You can watch some today, you can watch some later, and you will watch it alone. And you will watch it on your laptop. And it will always be there. And you gave up nothing to watch it. And Lea Thompson expands on even on that even more by saying this, this phenomenon happened at the same time that VHS tapes came out. And you could buy them and you could own you could hold it in your hand. Oh you guys when you spent your money on when you saved your allowance and you bought mannequin, and you could hold it, you could read the box and you that that thing that you invested in became something of your identity. Yeah, you are purchasing it as a part of your identity. It was not just something that you enjoyed watching you bought breakfast club because you were Ally Sheedy because that's who you identified with. And again, that will never happen again. We don't hold movies in our hands anymore.

Michelle Newman 56:06

And I think through through Lea Thompson and and pretty much everybody except Emilio Esther kind of trying to gently tell Andrew McCarthy or kind of help Andrew McCarthy see this, this in a different light, although I should say I really I just loved Rob Lowe because he basically was just like, Dude, come on. We were it. It was

Carolyn Cochrane 56:35

easy for Rob Lowe to say true. Yeah, true point.

Michelle Newman 56:38

Good point. But you know when I think he says this to Lauren Shuler, donner, who like I said earlier was the producer of pretty pink and st almost fire two very identifiable and memorable and probably two of the biggest like Brat Pack type movies. She says Andrew, this was a good thing. People this was a great time. And this was a good thing. People wanted to be in this moment with you. And he actually kind of steps back and he says, Wow, if I if we had perceived it this way, to him our lives would have been different, you know, to fro like and because like I said earlier, you know, this was so incredibly hurtful to him. And he viewed it and he he like I said earlier too. He admits it had a lot to do with my age. I was young, we were sure. Had this all happened when we were in our 40s we would have perceived it a different way. It all comes down to perception and your age basically.

Carolyn Cochrane 57:38

110% Let's talk about Aly Sheehy. We haven't even talked about her yet.

Michelle Newman 57:43

I thought she looks great. Oh, so I was just so happy to see her.

Carolyn Cochrane 57:50

Did you see her? Like this is me like analyzing everything but in my mind. They're in her apartment. Okay, and so when the cameras on Andrew, you can see like what I'm assuming is maybe like her vestibular kind of where you walk in. And there's a dresser and none of the drawers are all the way shut and there's like things out it's very cluttered. She seems maybe no offense to people that like cats. Michelle, you being one of them. But I just expected to come across across the back of the couch or something. But she seemed the most like she was then kind of a person just she was yes, she was

Kristin Nilsen 58:28

she was her character. I want to read this to you. This is one of the texting conversations that I had that sums up everything so perfectly. I'm texting with Megan McCafferty, who is the author of the Jessica Darling series, and she's texting me because she's getting responses from her readers from people who are are fans of the Jessica Darling series because Jessica Darling has a soft spot in her heart for the Brat Pack. So all of Megan McCafferty is fans are reaching out to her for her response. And Megan says to me, I love how all the actors responded so differently to the label and yet exactly the way I thought they would like of course Andrew McCarthy was all emo about it because he was the sensitive one. Meanwhile, Rob Lowe was like dude, it was fun chill out. Emilio still giving Major Dad energy demand her therapy speaks Ali's extremely relatable NYC apartment and Jon Cryer with all that Two and a Half Men money should have picked docky after all. Oh my god. Again on yes, that

Michelle Newman 59:31

needs to be a written review. I know this doc. MEGAN I love that.

Kristin Nilsen 59:36

I've chosen ducky.

Carolyn Cochrane 59:39

That's right. I mean look at Malcolm Gladwell. Yeah, no kidding.

Kristin Nilsen 59:57

Want to talk about the journalist a little bit because At the end of the documentary don't don't Don Andrew McCarthy actually interviews David Blum, the journalist who originally wrote this article. And it is extremely revealing. And one thing that I will say is that the journalist at the age of what now in mid 60s probably

Carolyn Cochrane 1:00:21

is, yeah, yeah.

Michelle Newman 1:00:24

Before Yeah, he

Kristin Nilsen 1:00:25

has some growing up to do still. What was your impression? That's, that's my impression he could have. I expected more growth five did

Carolyn Cochrane 1:00:33

too. And I think again, I had not read the article prior to watching the documentary. So I obviously even have different feelings after reading the article. But yes, I totally agree. He seemed kind of condescending, almost like, what's the big deal kind of a thing, not very empathetic into how his words might have, you know, actually affected someone's life? I don't know, I expected more from him. Kind of like you said, Kristen. And I. Now having read the article, I get some of the same vibes, like, well, look at you, I don't know, it just seemed like she was still

Michelle Newman 1:01:14

there. And a lotus mug.

Kristin Nilsen 1:01:16

I think that going from 29 to 65, or whatever it is, you'd be able to look back at the 29 year old. I mean, I do it all the time, I look back at things I did or said especially at work. And I see the work of a young person whose perspective could have been tweaked a little bit. He did not, he stood by absolutely every single thing. He was very calm and mild mannered. He wasn't combative, by any means. But there was exactly zero growth. And it would have been so easy for him to just say some things differently. And I actually wrote a speech for him. Oh, I did. This is what I wrote a speech for the journalists. And this is what I wanted him to say. I'm so sorry. If anything I wrote hurt you. I hope you can forgive me for that. But I hope you can see in the rearview mirror how that term elevated you in the eyes of the people watching your movies and cemented your work as historic as representative of an entire generation that spoke to them and molded them and is still important to them today. So no, I don't regret coining the term and hope you don't either. Would it have been so hard for him to say that?

Michelle Newman 1:02:24

Yeah, no, because he he alluded to some things a couple of times. I love that Andrew McCarthy had the balls to say, so would you go? Would you go back and do it differently? Would you regret it? And he actually said no, kind of because of what you just said he should have followed it up with? Yeah, he didn't. I feel like he was sort of shocked that he was there kind of putting him on the spot like that. And it didn't he didn't seem as sympathetic to Andrew McCarthy as I wanted. No, no, he was defending his work. But and that's okay. But if I could have done it in a different way, like, let's send that to him. I

Carolyn Cochrane 1:03:05

was a little bit perturbed in that. He kind of was saying, like, I was just writing what I saw, like, almost like I was this observer writing what I was watching. But it was so much more than that. I mean, he came with his perspective. So again, I talked about the word choice, when you're talking about people prowling, and you're referring to these little boys and little girls and, you know, maybe to acknowledge the fact that maybe that he still wouldn't change anything, but to say, that's why I wrote it this way. Instead of like, this is fact this is what was happening. Yeah, it wasn't it was your perception of what was happening through your lens of life. And choices. Exactly. And I

Kristin Nilsen 1:03:48

was like, you could have taken you could have taken 22 year old boys, bar hopping and written about it like a celebration is telling the same exact events. Exactly. But us chose to make it like they were doing something silly. So basically,

Michelle Newman 1:04:04

sort of he sort of turned it into gross. I don't know, it just felt it felt smarmy, or like they were doing stuff they weren't supposed to do. You want to go have sex with and go. I mean, you guys are

Carolyn Cochrane 1:04:20

with David. And that's one of the restaurants wherever Amelia was going. I'm sorry. And

Kristin Nilsen 1:04:25

apparently they still don't because he can't get over it.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:04:29

I'm sorry. Yeah, that was excellent. Kristin.

Michelle Newman 1:04:33

Yeah. I love that. Thank

Kristin Nilsen 1:04:34

you. I want I needed him to say that. That's why I wrote it because I'm like, I'm sitting there watching him just like trying literally physically like pulling the words out. He had such

Carolyn Cochrane 1:04:42

for presenting this to you on a silver platter. You don't have to, you know, this is a softball pitch or whatever they call it. Yes, you can hit a homerun right now. And you with it.

Kristin Nilsen 1:04:53

And Andrew McCarthy. He was also not combative. He was almost pleading he was almost a little boy weigh in, you know, help me out, dude, help me with this. And he couldn't pick up that ball and run with it. Well, I wouldn't say he couldn't do the whole I'm so sorry that hurt, you know, you can forgive me, but I stand by my work. Would it have been so hard to do that? Well, and

Michelle Newman 1:05:17

Andrew McCarthy, I felt like it was coming to that interview. He was like, in the elevator, you see him and he's kind of like, I can't believe this moments happening. I can't leave. Yes, this has been in his mind his arch nemesis for her arch nemesis. For this long, right. I mean, this is somebody who has loomed larger than life in his emotional, you know, sphere. And he's going to go and confront him. It's intimidating to and David did not make it. I don't think he made it a lot easier. For Andrew.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:05:49

Therapy. 101. Watching Andrew go through this whole experience really was Yeah, but yeah, like you said, confronting this thing that has taken up so much brain space for you. Like exposure therapy, dealing with it. Yeah, looking

Kristin Nilsen 1:06:03

at it face on and being able to look all of those people in the face and say, Did it go like this? How did you feel about it? And you had to me and you had Rob, who were like, Nope, that's not exactly how it was. But then you did have Emilio and ally, who said, Yes, we felt that way, too. So he's not he's not overreacting. It's just that there are a lot of factors. Yeah, exactly. And personalities

Michelle Newman 1:06:27

deal with this kind of stuff. Right? Totally different ways that sir, that's why like I said earlier at the beginning, as much as I you know, a lot of people are watching this going, like, oh, please is just him complaining about all of his success and fame. No, how can it how can any one person, judge or minimize someone else's trauma, because it really was to him, it was something that he's held on to for decades, and that he finally said, I'm 60 years old, or however old he is

Carolyn Cochrane 1:06:55

brought to the forefront, kind of the importance of this connection of talking to these people. We say it a lot like about the podcast, we all experience the same thing at the same time. And I think that, again, is why our podcast is so successful, is it is as successful as it is. And for him what a small minut number of people experience the same thing at the same time. Like I almost you know, it's sad that it took this long because there's something therapeutic about talking to your siblings about something that happened, where you all come at, no, that's not how it happened. Or that's not how I viewed it. But you all had that same shared experience. And I think by the end of this documentary, he realizes the value of that connection and how important that is to share those moments with the people that also were experiencing them. And I felt like that was one of the real positives that that he came out with.

Kristin Nilsen 1:07:55

And that was the end of the movie. Like you end it feeling like he's driving off into the sunset going. I think I'm gonna be okay.

Michelle Newman 1:08:03

Yeah, I got it. Like, ah, I got some stuff to chew on. But I think it'll be okay. Because he had the

Carolyn Cochrane 1:08:09

very end where it's him on that pier and the phone rings. First

Kristin Nilsen 1:08:19

it's gentle Nelson on the phone who has been elusive and you're never gonna see him in the documentary.

Michelle Newman 1:08:23

Yeah, that was well done.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:25

Because Barry Manilow know that you rate his wardrobe give you the answer to that question, Mr. Bender next Saturday. I'll mess with the bull young man you'll get the horns.

Kristin Nilsen 1:08:47

So no matter what Andrew McCarthy discovered in the making of this film for us, the members of Generation X, the Brat Pack was historic in the way that it spoke to us. We felt seen as a generation, our entire age group was validated. The Brat Pack and Generation X made history together. And to Malcolm Gladwell is point that will never happen again. Thanks so much for listening today. And thank you for joining us for the emergency recording of the pop culture Preservation Society.

Michelle Newman 1:09:20

That's right, and today's episode was brought to you by those kind listeners who take their support of our conversations to the next level. and today we'd like to especially thank some of our newest patrons Dawn Sandra Annabelle, Pamela Melissa, and the dead sleep podcast which you guys Carolyn is onto and if you're not listening to you should be the last two nights. I've been asleep and like five minutes and then I get mad though because I'm enjoying the story so much. Yeah.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:09:51

100% Yeah,

Michelle Newman 1:09:52

we love all our supporters on Patreon so damn much, honestly, you keep this podcast truckin.

Kristin Nilsen 1:09:58

In the meantime, let's go raise our glasses for a toast courtesy of the cast of Three's Company to good times to Happy

Michelle Newman 1:10:04

Days to Little House on the Prairie cheers. The

Kristin Nilsen 1:10:09

information opinions and comments expressed on the pop culture Preservation Society podcast belongs solely to Carolyn, the crush geologist and hello Newman, and are in no way representative of our employers or affiliates. And though we truly believe we are always right, there's always a first time the PCPs is written, produced and recorded in Minneapolis, Minnesota, home of the fictional w j m studios and our beloved Mary Richards Nananana. Keep on truckin and may the Force be with you.