Those Coming-Of-Age Classics From Your Gen X School Library & “The Genius of Judy Blume”
Carolyn Cochrane 0:00
Honestly, when you were talking about the depth of your Husker do this, I don't know if that's even a phrase, but I was thinking if I had like, passed out or was unconscious and then you showed me one of those books I would have been like, like I would have taken that breath like I'd been underwater for so long and then you take that huge gasp of oxygen has no
Speaker 1 0:21
sound like we're saying. Come on get louder this will make you happy.
Carolyn Cochrane 0:37
We welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society, the podcast for people born in the big wheel generation who gave a hoot and didn't pollute. We
Michelle Newman 0:47
believe our Gen X childhoods gave us unforgettable songs, stories, characters and images. And if we don't talk about them, they'll disappear like Marshall will and Holly on a routine expedition.
Kristin Nilsen 0:58
And today, we'll be saving those books you stole from the library that educated you on all the things no one would talk about pyramids, wet dreams, masturbation, bras, divorce drugs, body odor and kissing behind the ANP market. We're talking about the coming of age classics that could only have happened in the Gen X era.
Michelle Newman 1:17
I'm Carolyn. I'm Kristen. And I'm Michelle and we are your pop culture preservationists.
Unknown Speaker 1:35
To my love, took it down, climbed a mountain and turned around and saw my reflection snow covered a landslide.
Kristin Nilsen 1:56
Welcome to one more emergency meeting of the pop culture Preservation Society during this summer of reruns. It's important for us to pop in this week for two reasons. One of them has to do with a book that will be released tomorrow, July 16, which we will tell you about in a bit. And the other is because of a book that was released exactly one year ago, this week, I am celebrating the anniversary of one of the most important days of my whole life, which is the release of my first book at the age of 55. As you all know, worldwide crush, which I'm sorry, you've heard plenty about in the last year, I apologize. I'm covering
Michelle Newman 2:32
goosebumps right now I haven't I have goosebumps everywhere just here.
Kristin Nilsen 2:37
Big Deal. Deal, because it's a year I will never forget you guys. And part of that is because of the love and support I've gotten from all of you from my podcasters from the listeners, the incredible responses I've gotten for readers of all ages, including you the listeners of the pop culture Preservation Society. And I think there's one primary reason that this book written for middle schoolers has resonated with all of you. We are all here because of the childhood experiences that we hold dear. And worldwide crush deals with one of the most universal milestones of growing up, which is our first celebrity crush. This is one of the experiences that exemplifies our coming of age. And there's no doubt that I was influenced by the coming of age books that I read when I was in sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade. These were the books that took growing up seriously. And for the first time acknowledged that some of it might be awkward, and scary and totally confusing. By the time I was 11 or so I much preferred books that talked about the angst of growing up. Then I did a story about like a mouse or a happy family. God forbid a happy family. Was this your experience too? Absolutely.
Michelle Newman 3:57
I those were my those were the books I gravitated toward. Yeah. And kind of the more complicated and messy the situation or the feeling, the better certainly, maybe more titillating the topic, the better. But that's just because we were all at that normal age when things were confusing. And we were curious, right? Yeah. Yeah, and and Christian, like you said, the celebrity crush is certainly one factor of what we mean by coming of age. Because that whole genre is basically defined by the character usually a preteen or teenager navigating that tumultuous abyss between childhood and adulthood and all the feelings and roadblocks and detours and wrong turns along the way. Like deep breath periods menstruation, menstruation, shins through ation that word always like stopped stopped me cold when I was reading ministration like sexual awakenings and urges and the confusion and shame that often goes along with those things when you don't have anybody to bounce them off of your feelings off of drugs suddenly dare means a whole new thing, right? That's right. Racial, financial, familial issues and secrets the characters are becoming aware of and having to deal with and perhaps dealing with for the first time, bullying and friendship issues. And we can't forget about the autonomy, and the struggle that is suddenly present with parents. Parents, right? Yes, you guys getting older is and was a lot. And thankfully, we had books to help us through that completely complicated time books like this is coming of age type books
Carolyn Cochrane 5:44
fan. Yeah, goodness, we had those books, because honestly, I think those were the guidebooks that helped us navigate all of those experiences, you were just talking about, Michelle, because a lot of these topics are, we're not gonna maybe feel comfortable talking to our parents necessarily, or for that matter, they might not feel comfortable talking to us. There are some topics in that we didn't even know were a thing like this is the first time we're experiencing terms and what these characters are going through, which was so nice, because again, it's like this guidebook, it's like this is what's coming up. And when I get there, or when I'm in a situation like this, I'll have a reference. I'll have some information on how to maybe navigate this. And as the rule follower that I am, I really wanted. I like when people tell me what I should be doing or what I should be expecting. And that's exactly what these books did.
Michelle Newman 6:42
Yeah. But also a guide book. I love that term. But a guide book that's not like a textbook, a guidebook that scripts you and a story. Right? Yeah, it's real. It's real. Like and and I also like what you said, I mean, the guidebook that answered our questions, I don't normalize our curiosities, and feelings. But about things that I sometimes didn't even know. I was curious. You're right, until I read the book. And I was like, Oh, yeah. What is that? And these were like, people like us characters who are our age, going through it instead of someone handing you something that's very technical. Right?
Kristin Nilsen 7:21
Exactly. I remember information coming from adults, whether it was in health class, or church confirmation, or something. And it would be some adult saying, at this time in your life, you might experience confusing feelings, you might feel something about boys or girls, that did not work. That was not working something that was prescriptive. That was somebody telling me what I was feeling. It was not an experience of a
Carolyn Cochrane 7:49
peer. Right. I think that's the Yeah, key experience of a peer. And if it wasn't you that you saw in some of these characters, it was maybe your friends or, you know, other people that you recognized in your life, like this was the first time at least for me that I thought this reflected my life experience, whether it was, you know, a character moving, I was moving a lot. Yeah. But it was real people, I could put myself in those settings that these novels were,
Kristin Nilsen 8:24
and maybe it wasn't even. I mean, sometimes it was you. But sometimes, like you mentioned it was people in your environment, right? What if it was somebody from a different social class, or a different economic class? What if it was one of the burnouts, right? When I think about the books of se Hinton, she was giving us a little a view into what their lives were like. And that was helping us to have empathy for people and understand what their lives might be like. And
Carolyn Cochrane 8:50
it's really the first time in history that there were books that were aimed at children that dealt with these topics. I mean, we were really lucky to be born when we were born to have these so easily accessible to us. And really teach us a lot. I mean, it was my primer for so many things. Yeah, because if you think about it before
Kristin Nilsen 9:11
that era, before our era of coming of age, I always come back to the Beverly Cleary book. 15. Did you guys remember? Yeah, 52 I read. Lovely book. I loved 15 right about a teenage girls experience in the 1950s or the early 1960s. And it's sweet and it's happy, but it didn't portray any of the difficulties or the confusion, or certainly anything having to do with anyone's body. Oh, no,
Michelle Newman 9:40
it wasn't for us at the time. I loved Beverly Cleary books like 15 or Isn't there one called like sister of the bride and yes, yeah, I loved those books in much the same way. I loved Happy Days or i i love the nostalgia of it and I loved the whole just the throw back of it, it wasn't, it wasn't even in the same class as something like, are you there? God, it's me, Margaret or Reagan, maybe I won't. But
Carolyn Cochrane 10:07
think about it. When those books were written and consumed, there weren't there wasn't an option. Like that was what you were reading about being 13. And that's the impression you got like, oh, well, when I'm this age, I'm going to get married. And that's kind of what I'm, you know, working up toward, that's the end goal. So we were really again, the first generation to have these books that portrayed females in a little different light. And I think that was really important.
Unknown Speaker 10:36
I can do I am strong. I am. I am.
Michelle Newman 10:47
Believe me, there were so many people that were trying to stop those books, because they don't want women to think that any of that stuff is actually exists. I guess I was gonna say, Yeah, normal or okay. But no, they just want they want to just turn away from it.
Kristin Nilsen 11:05
And will remember the story about and I'm sure if we've said this story in in several different episodes, but it's just a good reminder of what you said, of the of Judy Blume trying to donate a copy of, are you there God, it's me, Margaret to her to her daughter school. And the principal refusing it, because he didn't think it was appropriate for people to be learning about periods. And Judy Blume was like, What about the girls who are getting their periods? Would they not benefit from a book about periods? So because it was like, oh, no, no, no. Yeah.
Michelle Newman 11:40
And the principal's mind is like, No, we don't talk about that. We don't know. We don't acknowledge that. Right. We don't have one
Kristin Nilsen 11:45
thing that was incredibly important to me. As I was reading these books, I think the thing that was most helpful to me in instead of ironically, getting the the preview of what was to come, was the acknowledgement that people were confused. Because that meant that I wasn't the only one who was in the dark. I really felt like holy shit. Everyone out there knows how to do all of the things. And I have no idea what I'm doing.
Michelle Newman 12:13
Oh, yeah, that was one more way that we felt seen by these books. Yeah. In our in our confusion, really? Yeah. And our questioning
Carolyn Cochrane 12:25
time, we're kind of insecure about ourselves and our bodies and the way we're just processing life, just so many questions. And that curiosity. This was probably the first time in my reading life that I experienced a character who was mirroring and a lot of times exactly what I was going through for the first time for me to go. Like you just said, Kristin, I'm not crazy. This isn't just me like this. And that, gosh, is that not the reason that we read sometimes is to see ourselves. And I think that for us, or for me was really the first time I could almost exhale and say, Yes, thank you.
Michelle Newman 13:06
And isn't that why we read and reread and reread these books? Because they were that lifeline for us? Yeah, we couldn't let go of it.
Kristin Nilsen 13:15
Yeah, even if they were dark. And I remember my mom being like, why do you read these dark books? Why do you want them? She didn't understand why it wasn't just reading Pollyanna all the time. And some parents have difficulty understanding how the darkness helps you feel less insecure.
Carolyn Cochrane 13:34
Yeah, yeah, just It's ironic.
Speaker 1 13:36
Can I sail through the changing
Unknown Speaker 13:45
seasons
Kristin Nilsen 13:51
so the thing that started this whole conversation between the three of us was a list that I found on Goodreads Goodreads is a website for readers where you can look for books, you can review books, you can make lists of books, kind of like a playlist except with books. And someone had made a list called Y a Y stands for young adult why a standalone titles of the 1970s and scrolling through that list was like walking in the doors of my local library in 1979. The one I rode my bike to on the highway by myself, right yeah, right but but I'm fine but
Carolyn Cochrane 14:30
no, clarify these books, write
Kristin Nilsen 14:33
great books, but get rid of these books are so dangerous, but go ahead and ride your bike on the highway with no helmets. No, he'll be fine. Yeah, and we don't know where you are. Anyway. So the visual of these of the book covers on this list. It was like a serial who screwed up moment. Yeah, one after another books I hadn't thought about in 45 years, but books I knew intimately even if I hadn't read them because As they were ubiquitous and so recognizable? Did you guys have that same experience when you open that list? Oh,
Carolyn Cochrane 15:06
100% Honestly, when you were talking about the depth of your Husker do this, I don't know if that's even a phrase, but I was thinking if I had like, passed out or was unconscious, and then you showed me one of those books, I would have been like, like, I would have taken that breath. Like I'd been underwater for so long. And then you take that huge gasp of oxygen because it was like almost life giving in a way that the nipple lightning was just it was a storm of,
Kristin Nilsen 15:34
let's just say that. recognizable?
Carolyn Cochrane 15:37
Yes. Oh, covers and the funds and yeah, like where those books sat, like the actual physical pneus physicality of the books. And I remember like my nightstand or wherever be like sitting on my desk at school or in the Scholastic Book order. Yeah, I could place it. Not just that, you know, the storyline, but also the actual book itself.
Michelle Newman 16:01
There was a few covers that I don't think my eyes have seen, since probably 1982 83. And exactly what Carolyn just said, I felt like I felt like I was gonna get teary and well up because all of a sudden, I saw that cover, and I was like, there it is. And I've ordered four of them on ThriftBooks There you go. Yeah, and they're not one of them. One is not going to be in the best condition. I think it said average, but it was like $3.25 I just needed to hold it in my hand again.
Kristin Nilsen 16:35
That's the thing. I just need a person. Exactly.
Michelle Newman 16:40
Kristen, I know you're gonna talk about want that just stopped me cold. So listeners, I'm gonna let Kristin reveal that one. But the other one I ordered is called taking sides by Norma Klein. And if I don't know if you remember it, but the the daughter she lives just with her dad, her parents are her parents are divorced. She just lives with her dad and her. Her brother and then her mom lives with another woman which interesting. There is an I remember reading
Kristin Nilsen 17:05
that I did not get that at the time lives with them with another woman. There that meant nothing to me, right? I
Michelle Newman 17:12
don't know, I can't wait to get that from thrift books this week again and read it to see if that's okay. We don't know we don't know. A book by Marilyn Sachs called Class pictures. And listeners, I'm going to put the covers of all of the books that the three of us are going to mention by title. I'm going to put images of all of the original covers of these in the Weekly Reader this week, because we're going to see if you guys also get who screwed. But when I saw that cover, I couldn't have told you what the story was about. But I could tell you that I probably studied that cover for you know, 68 hours. And here's the one that just stopped me cold. I'm just gonna show you guys the cover first. This is Mr. And Mrs. Bo Joe Jones. Oh, you guys remember this by and head now. Okay. Now, this was not on that list. Kristen. This is why you guys might not have seen this. Yet. This book was actually published in 1967. But it found its way into little Michelle's hands probably in about 1980 82. And that book, Mr. Mrs. Bo Joe Jones, along with the outsiders by se Hinton is credited with launching this kind of grow coming of age genre in young adult literature. I did not see this but there was a 1971 movie of Mr. And Mrs. Bo Joe Jones. I'm sure some listeners right now are going Yes, I know I remember it with Desi Arnaz and Christopher Norris was a girl She has blonde hair, also starring Tom Bosley, Dina Merrill, who if you guys saw her picture, you were on my boat? Yes, yeah. Larry Wilcox from chips and Nicholas Hammond you know why sound
Carolyn Cochrane 18:59
you know and Sound of Music and Brady Bunch and the Brady Bunch. Brady Bunch.
Kristin Nilsen 19:05
There's a couple Sound of Music kids on Brady Bunch,
Michelle Newman 19:08
but Mr. And Mrs. Bo Joe Jones. If you guys remember first of all of that title I always did. That was um, that was like a forever type scandalous book for him. Yes, it was they have sex on prom night she gets pregnant and then they get married?
Kristin Nilsen 19:20
Yes, that's all I know about. This was a cautionary tale, which differs from from some of the other books we're going to discuss later. But there were so many that came out especially in the late 60s In the early 70s. That gave you all of this scandalous content, but Oh, no. And
Michelle Newman 19:38
what happens she gets pregnant. Exactly. And the one that you're going to mention in a minute, Kristen was another one of my all time favorites. Carolyn, what about you?
Carolyn Cochrane 19:46
Well, you've mentioned Norma Klein earlier and I don't even know that I knew she wrote this book that who screwed me when I saw the cover, which was sunshine. So if you guys remember
Kristin Nilsen 19:57
sunshine You had no idea I did not
Carolyn Cochrane 20:02
either. No, I'm so sad that cover it's this black background and kind of like this oval, most picture frame and in it is a like a young mom and this little baby. And the font again those fonts, they can just take you back. So that cover was so classic. And then the line on the front of the book that says a tender story about what it's like to be young, a mother in love and dying. Oh my gosh, right there. And then of course this one gets turned into a TV movie, which impacted me so much. And then we've got sunshine on my shoulders. John Denver, let that be the song that played at the end. Oh, that story was so tragic that
Kristin Nilsen 20:48
and that was actually an adult novel that was picked up by teens like it became popular with teens. I think because of the dying
Carolyn Cochrane 20:55
mom will maybe end because of Norma Klein maybe. And because of normac line Yeah. And that leads me to my next book that threw me for a loop on in so many ways. It's called nobody loves Trina by Phyllis Whitney. Now Phyllis Whitney my whole life was a mystery author that my mother read every single Phyllis Whitney book that there ever was there was always a Phyllis Whitney hardback from the library with the crinkly clear cover those ones you can hear and I just thought and again a font. There was a Phyllis Whitney font. So when I saw a Phyllis Whitney book like in the Scholastic Book order, oh my gosh, this was my chance. It was kind of like the witch of Blackbird pond. You know, it kind of had that. I felt like grown up. I can have a Phyllis Whitney book too. And it's actually a good story. It's about a disabled girl who, sadly when you read the descriptions back then it said a retarded girl. So we know we've come a long way since then. But with this great storyline of kind of bullying, but how she enjoys really the simple things in life. Anyway, it's called nobody loves Trina. So that hit me hard when I saw that because that talk about coming of age. I mean, I was coming of age like I was an adult reading Phyllis Whitney. So that was an experience when I saw that. You
Kristin Nilsen 22:14
were being trusted with a topic that was very adult. And
Carolyn Cochrane 22:18
then I'll end with the classic that I can picture myself in the story. This was one that I was like ride along with them was I Know What You Did Last Summer? By lowest? Yes. Last just. Yeah, that's a good one. And
Kristin Nilsen 22:32
she became such the queen of those books in the she's and into the 90s. Yes, yeah, very, very much. There were so many of those. And
Michelle Newman 22:41
like sunshine, a lot of them did get made into our made for TV movies, which listeners we have a great episode. It might be too. But anyway, we have a great episode of Made for TV movies, where we do talk a little bit more about sunshine. Another one I did have on my list that whose cruddud me was the best little girl in the world by Steven Lavon Kron and that is the movie. I was looking at it going is it the movie or the book or the movie or the book. But the cover was so identifiable to me that I'm like, Well, I don't know, which came first in my life. Yeah, but I definitely read the book and some something like anorexia. You know, this isn't actually an interesting one. Because we talk about coming of age and things. We're all going through, like, universally, right? We're all going to get our periods. We're all going to have sexual urges. We're all gonna, but But when it's things like anorexia, I was super drawn to stuff like that, because I didn't I you know, I
Kristin Nilsen 23:33
didn't You didn't experience that. I didn't
Michelle Newman 23:35
experience that. But yet, I was super curious about it. And I was also very sympathetic toward it. I was not ever reading those books, like with judgment or anything. And I kind of gravitated towards those books as well, those books as well. So the best little girl in the world is definitely one that was in my bookshelf. And
Kristin Nilsen 23:54
that's why Go Ask Alice was such a hit me that Go Ask Alice was one of those books that got passed around and passed around and passed around? Because we were so curious about this drug addiction? We didn't know about? Was it heroin? I think it was heroin, if I recall correctly. And it was and it was by anonymous. Am I right? Isn't wasn't go. Go Ask Alice. Okay. Yeah, I
Carolyn Cochrane 24:22
would recommend for the leper, I
Kristin Nilsen 24:24
bet. Okay, you would know the cover. It's black. It's just black and it has white rat riding on it. Go Ask Alice. And that's the kind of book Go Ask Alice was the kind of book that even if you weren't a reader, you read Go Ask Alice, because we're around and it was yeah, it was like forever. And it was it? I guess you could put it in the category of titillating. You could put it in the category of cautionary tale, but it was also putting us in this category of what could happen. Be careful. Our parents were all really worried about well, they were worried about anorexia too. I felt like that was directed at me like Chris Be careful, Kristin. Be careful of drugs, of course. Has anyone ever in my entire life approached me with drugs? No, nothing ever. But what I remember in junior high just like waiting for somebody to approach the bus stop
Michelle Newman 25:15
early. Yes, always. But we were ready. We were prepared though.
Carolyn Cochrane 25:21
Another book along those lines of what you guys were talking about was I want to keep my baby. Which then going into the movie with Mariel Hemingway, same kind of thing like imagining being like, you know, 1415 years 16 years old and having this baby and I have Mariel Hemingway
Kristin Nilsen 25:41
never gonna leave us anyone again. No way. I totally forgot about that. Carolyn, I want to keep my baby. And this was one of them. The title of it after school I know. They all are it's all that's what they are. They're all after school specials basically. And so many of these you didn't know which came first the book or the made for TV movie because oftentimes the covers reflected the made for TV movie, and I still don't know did they come out at the same time? Was it a simultaneous release? Like remember sooner or later was sooner or later a book before that made for TV movie with Rick Smith came out? I don't know. We talked about one of those.
Carolyn Cochrane 26:22
I think it came out after didn't. It might have even come
Kristin Nilsen 26:25
out after Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 26:39
You the Nozick
Kristin Nilsen 26:42
the other title that jumped out at me so hard and this is a book I never read. But this goes in the category of something that was so ubiquitous and everybody knew it. And please help me remember who wrote this. I might have been a normal Klein book. My darling my hamburger
Michelle Newman 26:57
Danciger isn't it? Yes. I think oh, that's what first came to me when you said My darling right here. Yeah, it was probably
Kristin Nilsen 27:05
what that book is about, but it became a part of okay, are we looking at up right now?
Michelle Newman 27:12
Yeah, that is so that one is such a Yeah, the title. Oh, no,
Carolyn Cochrane 27:16
no, it's Paul's in Del Pozo
Kristin Nilsen 27:19
down okay. Paul's in doubt, my darling my hamburger by Paul's in doubt. And that would be one of those books that was on a spinner at Snyder's Yeah. Like you would shop for books at the drugstore on a spinner. That's where all these books were. Could you find them? Abby Dalton? Sure. You could, but really Snyder's was for these kinds of books. And again, I can't tell you what those books were about. I can't tell you what my darling my hamburger was about. I have no idea. It says it
Carolyn Cochrane 27:45
was meant to shock the reader into avoiding sex and unvirtuous relationships. It features attempted rape, toxic relationships, and abortion. Oh my gosh, I would have never thought that. I thought it was like a cute Yeah, like they go to a diner, and they like to order the works at Burger
Kristin Nilsen 28:03
King. All right,
Michelle Newman 28:04
I'm gonna check that or I gotta order that one from thrift books. But
Kristin Nilsen 28:07
this is interesting, because we have, we're going to talk about two camps of books here as we move on. That really sounds like a cautionary tale. And we're going to be telling. Well, we've told this story before about the book forever. We've talked so much about forever in so many different episodes. And we know that forever was written because Judy blooms daughter came to her and said, Mom, will you please write a book about two teenagers who have who have sex and nobody dies? Because every book for teenagers, though we loved them. There was it was a cautionary tale. You'll get pregnant, you'll have to have an abortion, there'll be a back alley abortion, then you'll die. And of course, who is the person that suffers the girl? The boy doesn't suffer. The one instance where this got turned on his head a little bit is another normal client book. Norma Klein. I'm just how many times have I said she was so prolific, but she really did she read 100 books, I don't know. And she wrote them well into the 80s. One of them is called Mr. Saturday nights. And it's about a boy who gets a girl pregnant and he decides to raise the baby on his own, including taking the baby with him to Columbia University when he goes to college. So no more Saturday nights for you. I mean, I'm sure
Michelle Newman 29:24
Rob father
Kristin Nilsen 29:27
schoolboy father with Rob Lowe.
Carolyn Cochrane 29:29
I can split I think I can see someone like walking through the quad at some college like with a baby backpack. Yep, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Girls working and
Michelle Newman 29:41
you know what we've talked about the Andy Gibb font, right. Yeah. Can everyone picture the normal client fine? Yes, yes.
Kristin Nilsen 29:46
Yes, the normal client fine. And it's interesting because I there's another list that is young adult standalone books of the 1980s. That list is very unfamiliar to me extreme EMLYON familiar, there are just a couple of titles that jump out. It is highly populated with normal Klein books. But I was not reading those kinds of books at that time. Really, by the time I reached seventh grade, I was reading mass market paperback romance, right. I was really Yes, it Belva plain and Daniel steel Yeah, oh two provided to me by my mother, I might add, I remember my mom giving me evergreen by Belva plain. And I really enjoyed that, especially the times when she's in the bathtub by herself.
Michelle Newman 30:31
And really
Kristin Nilsen 30:34
learning a lot about what you do in the bathtub. I
Carolyn Cochrane 30:36
was led read that was very controversial, because of course, I was Catholic. So this was like, Whoa, the good
Michelle Newman 30:42
reads list from the 80s. I started. That's actually where I found class pictures by Maryland set facts. And I feel like that author Maryland sacks when I saw it's like s a CHS. When I saw that, I was like, Oh, I've read a whole bunch of her books, because that name just just seems so familiar to me. But I agree, Kristen, even though I was only while I was turning 11 and 1980. Those books that were all published in The 70s lived on throughout the 80s. And also when you had an older sister like I did, they were getting passed down to me she was three and a half years older. So the ones from the early 80s, which class pictures is definitely and I would also argue that we posted this on social media many times and I know listeners love them. But you know, the Sweet Dreams, romance books, I was obsessed. And you guys, my mom just found all of mine. And she said would you want all of those I was like what I want. Those were not nearly as deep as some of these other ones were talking about. But to me they were coming of age because they were putting me in situations where you know, the popularity plan. It's the girl who is, you know, wanting to figure out how she can be popular but it was situations that I was actually experiencing in school maybe the girl who feels less than or feels like all her friends are dating and she's not and and so to me, those books were a lifeline to me, because they did help me feel seeing all of us who read them. We devoured them, my sister and I would get stacks of them at Christmas. And my mom would read them too. Isn't that funny?
Kristin Nilsen 32:11
That was the precursor to Sweet Valley High. It was Yeah, exactly was yeah, the Stein girls devoured those books.
Michelle Newman 32:17
I actually had the Sweet Dreams romance diary and the sweet you know, there was like a calendar and all that stuff.
Carolyn Cochrane 32:22
I was just gonna say about that 80s list. Yeah, again, I was, I wouldn't say who screwed is the word. But what I realized a lot of those books were ones that I had actually taught in the early and mid 90s to my middle schoolers. So Jacob have I loved all those Lois Duncan books, I think Maryland Saks books, as well. So it was a they were in my classroom library on the bookshelves. So they were still coming of age I was teaching them and my kids were carrying committee. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Kristin Nilsen 32:57
I have to tell you about Jacob have I loved because Jacob have I loved is probably the only young adult Coming of Age book that I read past seventh grade when I was reading Belva plain and, and Daniel steel. And well, besides the outsiders, and that was then this is now but I think that the outsiders and that was then this is now we could have a whole episode about those two books. And those were required reading in my language arts class. And when I think back on that now and I'm and I did order that was then this is now because I just had to be like, what were they teaching us? What were we talking about? And it's interesting to reread it and think about the discussions that we had. We talked about grammar, we talked about Yeah, why is it appropriate to put the wrong grammar in a book? Why would we do that? Okay, but I have to talk about Jacob have I left because I adored this book Jacob have I loved by Katherine Paterson was about two twin girls who are growing up on an island in Chesapeake Bay. Is that right? Was it Yes. Yeah, I think so. It's a very atmospheric story about island living and boys and one one twin was the pretty one and one twin was the smart one. And and I remember understanding at the that moment that this was a true Coming of Age book because it actually ends with an epilogue in adulthood where one of them becomes a midwife. So this happens in college with my friend Colleen. And we went on spring break trip together with another friend named Martha. We just got in the car started driving and we ended up on an island off the east coast. It wasn't as a peak Bay, but it was some random Island. And both Colleen and I took in a big breath and we were like,
Carolyn Cochrane 34:41
oh, Jacob I loved this Jacob ever loved. And
Kristin Nilsen 34:44
we talked about it and explained about it so much that Martha was started mocking Jacob I love it's all you guys talking about as Jacob me left. And so eventually as adults, Colleen and I end up at a conference where Katherine Patterson is speaking oh my gosh, and the two of us are we're so excited. We're gonna tell her that Jacob I love story. And we go up to her and we tell her the whole thing and we're going to give her the love Jacob had I love you guys. She stared at us like we had two heads. No, it's just like, please, will somebody write to women?
Michelle Newman 35:25
Oh, that's so funny. I hope you got Martha to read it.
Kristin Nilsen 35:27
No, no, she would never know she's too stubborn she she's not going to read it now.
Michelle Newman 35:34
I'm actually I just wrote that down as another one to reorder to order. I've like made I've ordered four books from thrift books. I have now like five more that I'm about to go order. And you guys we get no, we don't get paid by thrift books. We truly know what they should. Good. Yeah, there's some good
Kristin Nilsen 35:51
side. The other one that I want to point out that I'm not sure was on this list or not. But it does deserve to be on this list is summer of my German soldier, which we actually briefly discussed doing a whole episode on this season. And we decided not to because it doesn't feel right in this time. Right. Anything about the Holocaust feels too close right now and dangerous. And we were like we don't we don't want to talk about it. But some of my German soldier just as a reminder is by Betty miles and it was turned into a made for TV movie with Kristy McNichol so of course we all loved it. We all watched that movie that was appointment TV. But I think are we are we ready for the number one who screwed do title that was on that list? Just dropping by alluded to earlier. Yeah, the one that Michelle has been alluding to the number one title that made our brains go, Oh, Mom, the Wolfman and me by again, Norma Klein, because Norma Klein just couldn't stop writing books that we were reading. The book slapped me so hard in the face. It was written in 1974. It's about an 11 year old girl named Brett who lives in New York City with her very bohemian peace loving artist, mother and I can't tell you in how many how many times I I read that she wore blue jeans like thou uncommon mustard have been for them to mention in every blurb and every review that the mom wore blue jeans. She's a single parent. She's never been married. And she likes it that way. And and Brett likes it that way too. And in fact, she's really worried that her mom will get married someday in turn normal. This scares her. She doesn't want her mom to turn normal wear a dress.
Michelle Newman 37:31
Yeah, oh
Kristin Nilsen 37:33
my god, or God forbid slacks slacks, and I don't wear slacks. But then Brett meets a guy. She calls the Wolfman who both because he's like this big beauty dude. But he also has an Irish Wolfhound. And suddenly Brett is thinking that she would like her mom and the Wolfman to get closer. I cannot read this book. I could not read this book. It is not available. It is not in print. It is it's at my library. But it's only available in a special historical collection where you can't check it out. And you have to read it in the library. So I did. I did find a copy. Yes, online and it has not yet arrived and I cannot wait to meet you.
Michelle Newman 38:15
I couldn't match the one I ordered that says it. It's an average condition. I was like, Yeah, but it's like three whatever. Yeah. Again, yeah. I love that. But also can we just talk about how great that title is? Mom, the wolf, man and me. How do you not want to read that book? Right.
Kristin Nilsen 38:32
I know. I know. This of course was also turned into a made for a TV movie in 1980. And with an all star cast starring Patty Duke. David Burnie who is Meredith Baxter. Bernie's husband. Also a common Love Boat star. Danielle rose. From all in the family, Archie Bunker. And also I just have to throw this out here apropos of nothing. You all know that she was in the band that did you get what you give that classic one hit wonder. Did you also know that she co wrote the songs unwritten and pocketful of sunshine? No and Natasha Bedingfield. All right, everyone areas
Michelle Newman 39:11
are look at your speakers, the rainbows come and shoot out right? The more you know, that's
Kristin Nilsen 39:18
amazing. Stephanie from out in the family co wrote those songs that that
Michelle Newman 39:23
movie listeners is available on YouTube kind of crappy quality but doesn't matter. Watch it you need a good a good movie to watch. Watch mom, the Wolfman, me great cast.
Carolyn Cochrane 39:35
And let's just say normal client. But here's my thing. I don't know her story. Like when were we going to get a mom who had a kid and wasn't married and wore jeans? I mean, this was like,
Kristin Nilsen 39:48
yes. The impact that she had is is unbelievable and and it's it's I had no idea that so many of her books came out in the 80s so she just kept on moving. She died tragically very very young. I in 1989 when she was only 50 years old, oh, what? I know. She was 50 Check Holy Cow I know. And it turns out that Norma Klein was two peas in a pod besties total besties you're going to totally get this you wonder you know what the answer is already with the woman who might be the queen of coming of age books. There is no coming of age without Judy Blume and Norma and Judy were besties Where did I learn this fun fact from a new book that's coming out this week called the genius of Judy how Judy Blume rewrote childhood for all of us by Rochelle bergstein. Now we have talked about Judy Blume extensively on this podcast, we are dangerously close to becoming a Judy Blume podcast. But that's just because of the outsized impact that she had
Michelle Newman 40:53
on our generation. And she is absolutely responsible for helping millions upon millions of kids feel seen and okay about themselves. I
Carolyn Cochrane 41:02
had some real epiphanies while I was reading this book, it really put some pieces together in ways that I had never thought of before that I went, Oh, of course, that makes so much sense. Yeah. And I love when I have those moments. And so it's really informative, but she's such a fun writer. It's just a great read.
Kristin Nilsen 41:21
It's a really, really fun read. She takes a look at Judy blooms titles. And she tells you not only what was happening in Judy blooms life at that moment, but also what was happening in the culture at that moment, be it the sexual revolution or second wave feminism, what was happening in the schools, what were the attitudes towards sex education in the schools at that moment, and it kind of makes you see that her books were not coming out of nowhere, you can almost take a look at Judy Blume books and use it as a study of that moment in time. And lucky as we have with us today the author of this jewel of a book Rochelle bergstein Rochelle is an author and an editor whose work focuses on style pop culture and families and has appeared in The New York Times The Washington Post The Wall Street Journal, NPR, and more a lot more. She digs deep and finds meaning in places you may not know to look. Her first book is all about women and shoes. Just crazy. And her latest deep dive is on Judy Blume in the book, the genius of Judy how Judy Blume rewrote childhood for all of us, which comes out July 16. with great fanfare, I might add Rochelle bergstein. Welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society, we are so thrilled to see your pretty face Welcome.
Speaker 2 42:36
I am so happy to be here. I love this podcast and so excited to talk to you all.
Unknown Speaker 42:41
Thank you.
Michelle Newman 42:42
I'm so excited. I stumbled across this book, just looking for some upcoming things this summer. And this was a few months ago and I saw the cover and I did a screenshot and sent it to Kristen and Carolyn. I was like, Are you guys ready for this book that's coming out this summer. Like this is right up our alley. I was so excited Rochelle, and then to have to have had been able to connect with you. And now be talking with you is so thrilling.
Carolyn Cochrane 43:07
Yes, for sure.
Kristin Nilsen 43:09
This is such a good match. It's incredibly good match, right? When I when I started to read this book, I had to reach out to Michelle and just tell her, I can't put it down. I can't put it down and I have an I have work to do and I need to put it down. Somebody please help me. It's like she wrote this book just for me. So thank you, Michelle, for writing this book just for me.
Unknown Speaker 43:34
I did thank you for
Michelle Newman 43:37
Christine, do you want to share it with hopefully like 10s of 1000s of other people
Kristin Nilsen 43:43
that will sign up for them? I'll sign it for them. Okay, so I need to ask you. So part of the reason that you wrote this book is because you had such nostalgia for Judy Blume? Why do we feel that way? Why is it that like universally across generations, not generations, but universally across a generation? Basically, we all feel this nostalgia for Judy Blume? What did she do to us?
Speaker 2 44:09
Well, that's really what I wanted to investigate it this book, you know, selfishly I wanted to spend as much time with Judy Blume books as possible. Writing a book is a multi year process and I thought it would be so fun to read, revisit her catalogue and just read the books with my son who's eight and you know, immerse myself in her story. But my mission with this project was to understand why Judy in particular compared to some of her contemporaries who were also publishing great books. Why just hearing her name is enough to elicit huge smiles and red cheeks and starry eyes. Like you say Judy Blume to women of a certain age and they're just like, oh my god, I love Judy Blume. So, I wanted to answer that question what it was about her in particular that managed to You know, penetrates so deep in all of our consciousness, I spent a book trying to answer this question, but I think part of it is the way she spoke. So frankly, about sex and our bodies and puberty. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of us grew up in homes, or went to schools or in communities were talking about those things that was still pretty taboo. I mean, it still is today. And that's, you know, a big conversation. But Judy just laid it out on the table. And she did it in a way that made us as young readers feel normal and seen and acknowledged. And that's an unforgettable feeling.
Kristin Nilsen 45:38
Maybe that is what it is it made us feel validated, even if we couldn't have identified that in the moment, because we clearly craved whatever she, whatever she put on the page, we craved it. And we've talked about this before, where it's, it's not profound stuff, she's putting down the simplest of terms, in the simplest of language in the way that we spoke. And that's how we were able to hear it, right, instead of packaging it in a in a pretty package that was over our heads. She just said it exactly as it was
Speaker 2 46:12
100% and she inserted, you know, these kind of like, basic details about bodies and puberty and you know, menstrual pads and things into stories where all of the other details were just kind of stuff about normal kids. So a girl like Margaret, and are you there? God, it's me, Margaret, she can be worrying about her crush, or chatting with her friends about what kind of socks she's going to wear to school at one minute. And then at the next minute, she's begging God to get her period. You know, so I think Judy, really, she was able to cover the the scope of what kids think about in childhood and recognize that it's actually much more complex than kids were often given credit for.
Michelle Newman 46:57
And I think I think too, and and again, we've, we've had a few episodes on Judy Blume books before, and I so we've probably touched on this, but you what you just said, besides being complex, it was also the simplicity of it. And Christian, you said earlier, something about one generation, I would say you corrected yourself when you said generations, how do you know I do want to know more, because I know my own kids who are now you know, late 20s and early 20s, they still get excited if you mentioned a Judy Blume book. But what I was gonna say is that, especially back in the 70s 80s, if we were even brave enough to to act on our curiosities, and ask a parent or a teacher or something, you are getting more of a clinical explanation, or you are getting a pamphlet, or a book that was more like a textbook. But what Judy Blume did is put us in the story. And so we became those characters. And so when we say we all felt seen, that's, you know, times a million, because we were those people. So all of these situations were happening in the story, just like how they were happening to us the questions, the things we might be doing in the dark, the you know, all of this kind of stuff, right? And so it wasn't clinical, it was actually just very simple. But
Kristin Nilsen 48:18
everyone always says real, everybody always says honest. But I think we underestimate the impact that real and honest, right had on us.
Speaker 2 48:28
The impacts and I think the innovation of that, you know, I think that now it seems very obvious to write realistic fiction for young people with real life scenarios and real challenges. Back when Judy started writing in the late 1960s, that was actually more unusual. A lot of the books for children were fantasy books. They were good books. I mean, when you look at like a Roald Dahl book, or A Wrinkle in Time, these are great books that holds up. But they're not books about just the daily life and struggles of kids. Yeah. And so I think by putting the daily life and struggles of regular kids on the page, and then also inserting stuff about bodies and sex into those stories. Judy Blume really, again, she touched on the complexity of the human experience of being a pre adolescent in this really simple, accessible way. I think that's, like part of the magic part of the secret sauce.
Carolyn Cochrane 49:33
Yeah. And what I really took away, I loved how you kind of gave us some history and kind of the chronological you know, timeline of feminism and a woman's role in society because it really dawned on me like we're the first generation to have read these kinds of these kinds of books and and felt seen our moms, they didn't that have that and so it was almost like, well, of course Like I grew up thinking, all of these things that were presented in the book, not that they were these novel ideas, it's like, this is life. And I'm a girl and I can do these things. I've, you know, her characters are so empowered. I think you mentioned that. And I feel like that's what I grew up believing. I didn't have any other, you know, literature that told me differently, I guess that I held so close to me, it just affected me when I saw the timeline, that we are that first generation to have been given this message, maybe really, that we can do anything, we can be anything even, you know, we're females. But that didn't matter where I think our moms not really is. Our moms did not get that message from the culture and society. We were that first spam group to do that.
Speaker 2 50:47
Yeah, one of the things I really noticed when I went back to the books as an adult for this project was the way that mothers are portrayed in Judy's books, and that she was giving us as young readers examples of kinds of empowered and disempowered women. Right. So and it wasn't so boxy. Judy Blume was almost never up on a soapbox, but she was giving us examples of mothers who were getting in touch with their goals in life, even after having children or on the other hand, mothers who were a little bit too enmeshed with their kids, and maybe had never found their voice. And so I think, yes, as readers as young people, we're seeing a young characters who feel empowered, who stands up for themselves. And then we're also seeing versions of womanhood, both strong and not so strong that we can kind of choose from
Kristin Nilsen 51:45
it that was so interesting to me, because that had never ever occurred to me to look to the mothers in those books. And yet, that imprinted on us just the same. I
Speaker 2 51:54
mean, looking at the biographical details of Judy blues life, she's kind of living out this story that we're seeing play across the mothers in her books, right. She got married, she got engaged when she was still in college. She had her first child before she graduated. She got a college education. But she wasn't expected to use it. She was from a middle class Jewish family. And the expectation was that she would marry and have kids and make a beautiful home. And she did all of that. And then in her mid to late 20s, she felt very depressed, and she was getting weird skin afflictions and cold symptoms that couldn't be explained. And she realized she needed to get back in touch with her creativity. Her earliest writing teacher, she encouraged her to write realistic fiction, like Judy experimented with a lot of different forms. You know, she tried the fantasy thing she wrote, first person, third person, she wrote a little bit of adult fiction she she was trying a lot of stuff. But her writing teacher told her that this was what she was best at. Oh, wow. And she just started channeling her young experiences onto the page. So with Margaret, she's literally using things that happened to her in her own life. You know, Margaret has a group of friends that call themselves the PTS is the preteen sensations. And Judy was in a group like that they were they call themselves the preteen kittens. And they sat around and they talked about their crushes. And they had, I believe it was cat names instead of, you know, glamorous, 70s names, but part of junior Judy's gift was just using real life experience and translating it for kids.
Carolyn Cochrane 53:48
I guess one of the things we'd like to ask you if you can sum it up, per your title and all the research you did, what do you really think that the genius of Judy Blume is
Speaker 2 54:02
So this took me a minute to crack open. And then it really became the idea of this book, which is that Judy Blume translated the messages of second wave feminism in real time for her readers, and thus ensured feminism longevity
Kristin Nilsen 54:22
in us.
Carolyn Cochrane 54:24
Yes, yes. And the children that was funny for me when you put that you crystallized it so well. And I was like, yeah, yes. Yes. How lucky were we right? I mean, yeah, like I said, that's first generation to grow up with this knowledge. You know, this information like yeah, of course, we didn't know any differently. That just Yes, so good. Rochelle, and again,
Kristin Nilsen 54:46
doing it not in a way in which she was teaching anything. He was just translating her own experience. She was just being truthful about what she was feeling, and in so doing was illuminating for us what was happening for women, right? And then we learned that for ourselves that women struggle, women might struggle if they don't have a vocation, or if they don't have a creative outlet. If they write and all of that becomes part of our own experience, then it's just, it's so much more effective in that truthful way, then it is setting out to, to make a point. That was not what she was doing. She was not out to make a point. She was just telling her story.
Speaker 2 55:27
Yeah, totally. And then she's seeing, you know, Susan Brown, Miller, talk on the news. And she's thinking all of these things about the messages she received growing up, and the kind of women woman that she became, and the kind of woman that her mother was, and she's, yeah, she was translating them into children's books, and giving us the tools to, you know, stand up and wave that banner one day,
Carolyn Cochrane 55:51
and not really know any differently. I mean, I love that part of it. It's like reading these books when we're eight 910 years old, and just absorbing them like you said, I mean, that's what we did. We absorbed, it wasn't like this was such this novel idea. It was, this is the way it is and how important that was, again, I mean, serendipity, whatever you want to call it, especially since she wasn't out to do this. Oh, my gosh, isn't that why I would say Gen X women are forced to be reckoned with right now in our culture and society. It's
Michelle Newman 56:23
so true. You know, I see I was on a hike the other day, and there was a little girl, she might have been four. And she's got a like an RBG shirt on, you know, walking along, and I was like, Oh my God, that's so cute. And I'm really I mean, love it right? And I'm reading your book, I'm like, Why aren't more people walking around with pictures of Judy Blume on their shirts, I think I'm gonna start a line of T shirts. That's just do it like even just the outline of her faith, because to me, she is my true
Kristin Nilsen 56:51
hero. And we didn't even know that it didn't,
Carolyn Cochrane 56:53
wasn't to us that we had to become the adult women that we are today to realize the impact that those books and Judy Blume had on who we became. Totally
Michelle Newman 57:06
Yes, I totally agree. And what's so fun about that is that but we knew it all along. We just didn't know we knew it. She was our hero back then. And we didn't know it at the time. And she was the first one to get us in those very early curiosity ages, about anything. And I'm not just talking about sex, necessarily. It could be a lot of things about why are my parents acting this way? Or why do I feel this way about my friend or why is now my friend who was my best friend last year now acting this way towards me. She was the first one to help us. Help us tackle some of these other questions that we had and feelings that we had.
Speaker 2 57:50
Yeah, I think some of Judy's books also, there's kind of a Trojan horse element, right? Like, you come to read about Margaret, playing two minutes in the closet with her crush, but you stay for the stuff about periods. You know, I was so in love with just as long as we're together when I was a kid, which was about complicated friendship dynamics between three girls. And I had that experience too. I was like this is it's tough to be best friends with two girls who are also kind of friends and you get left out like three is a tough number. But it wasn't until I revisited as an adult that I was like, Oh, this is a book about a child experiencing her parents divorce. And I experienced my parents divorce. And I think I love this book so much because the character Stephanie's angry, and I was angry. And I didn't really have words for that. So, you know, Judy kind of grabbed us as young readers with all of these things that were fun and relatable and interesting. And then she layered in some really incredible life lessons.
Kristin Nilsen 58:50
And they weren't heroes. Those kids weren't heroes. They were just regular kids. So when you say that Stephanie got angry. That was not behavior that was really allowed in books previously. The kids were not allowed to be naughty. Or have feelings have bad feelings about their parents to say naughty things about their parents, I think about starring Sally J. Friedman. She thinks terrible things about other people. And yet I love her the whole time. I never think that she's a bad kid. She's just a regular kid, because that's how kids actually think and so it was almost like she was giving us permission to just be ourselves. And I love this is from your book. I this is one of the best nuggets in your book is that the reviews for Sally were really bad. And they hurt Judy's feelings horribly to the point where she took her her typewriter and she was going to go throw it into a ravine or something because she had written this horrible, horrible book. Here we are 50 years later. And that is my number one favorite book. Not my number one favorite book of childhood, not my favorite children's book. It's my Favorite book. And people reviewed it horribly and she almost stopped writing because of consistently
Speaker 2 1:00:05
Judy's books were poorly reviewed, which is kind of crazy to think about now that we're in we're in the blue Amazon's right like he loves Judy Blume. But, but back then, her her books were consistently dismissed as junk food. That she was pandering to kids that she was selling sex that she wasn't talented. This came up again and again. She's not literary she's not a good writer. Kids are better off reading the classics than the Judy boom dribble that their faces are stuck in. You know, she persisted despite that, and thank God she did.
Michelle Newman 1:00:39
Rochelle, I mentioned it in our conversation earlier that I love how your book is organized. How Yeah, you you dive into an a deep dive into her books and backstories about her books, but separated by topics like could be masturbation, divorce, mother's rebellion, etc. And I just have to read two of my favorite sentences in your entire book and there were many but just so our listeners listeners if you need another reason to run run to get this book in chapter nine, which is masturbation. This Rochelle writes this, let's be clear, until Dini girls didn't masturbate and children's literature invento now classic characters like Pippi Longstocking and Ramona Quimby were zany and unpredictable, but they certainly never told us where their hands wandered when they were alone. If you if you love Judy Blume books and you still love Judy Blume books, this book is a must read.
Kristin Nilsen 1:01:45
Yes, it really is. This is this book is an education for all of us, whether you're from Gen X or not. And it was so fun to read. I devoured every single word. Michelle, can we call you again, when we inevitably talk about Judy Blume again, or there's a whole part in the book where you talk about sex education, and you talk about those books about where do babies come from, we have to do an episode on that you would be a perfect source for
Michelle Newman 1:02:09
that, how it'd be fun.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:09
I would love that so much. There
Kristin Nilsen 1:02:12
is so much more I want to talk about, we really need to leave some for the for the reader. So I'm just gonna say it right here. Thank you so much, Michelle, for elevating this topic for letting us know how important Judy Blume is that this is the genius of our generation. And thank you for spending time with us today.
Carolyn Cochrane 1:02:27
Thank you so much for
Unknown Speaker 1:02:28
having me. This is so fun.
Speaker 1 1:02:33
To Children Dad Oh, good. No.
Kristin Nilsen 1:02:42
Needless to say the genius of Judy Blume made a huge impact on us. So once again, we are finding out that what we had growing up in the Gen X era was unique. Apparently the books we had, as we were coming of age would make up what could be called the golden age of coming of age novels. The pure honest truth about the realities of life from my darling my hamburger to Go Ask Alice from the outsiders to mom the Wolfman and me from sooner or later to summer of my German soldier from Are you there GOD IT'S ME Margaret to Dini and forever blubber Aigis house and it's not the end of the world. We grew up with something special. Do yourself a favor and read these books again and see what it was that drew you in the first time. Thanks so much for being with us today. And we will see you next time.
Michelle Newman 1:03:33
Today's episode was brought to you buy Of course, Norma Klein and Judy Blume and Rochelle bergstein but also by all the wonderful people who take their support of our podcast to the next level and have joined our Patreon and today we are giving a special thank you to Shannon, Jen, Teresa, Diane, Colette, Kelly, Barbara, Elaine, Charles, Heather, Jill, Angela, Julie, Erin, Amy and Nora, my gosh.
Kristin Nilsen 1:04:05
That's a lot of people. Thank
Carolyn Cochrane 1:04:07
you all so much. That means so much to us. It really does. And a special thank you to our guest Rochelle bergstein. Remember her book The genius of Judy how Judy Blume rewrote childhood for all of us comes out this week, so run to your local bookstore, or to book shop.org and order your copy today.
Kristin Nilsen 1:04:29
In the meantime, let's raise our glasses for a toast courtesy of the cast of Three's Company to good times
Carolyn Cochrane 1:04:35
to Happy Days to Little House on the Prairie. Cheers. Cheers.
Kristin Nilsen 1:04:41
The information opinions and comments expressed in the pop culture Preservation Society podcast belongs solely to Carolyn, the crush geologist and hello Newman and are in no way representative of our employers or affiliates. And though we truly believe we are always right, there's always a first time the PCPs is written produced and recorded in Minneapolis, Minnesota Home of the fictional W jam studios and our beloved Mary Richards nananana who keep on truckin and may the Force be with you