Kramer vs Kramer: The Adult Movie for GenX Kids.
Michelle Newman 0:00
Hi, this is Melissa Gilbert and you are listening to the pop culture Preservation Society.
Kristin Nilsen 0:07
This is when I ran out of my bedroom where I was watching the Academy Awards on my 13 inch black and white pants portable Panasonic TV which I pulled into my bedroom and I shouted to my family, Kramer vs Kramer is the winner. Kramer is the winner. And I don't really think they cared like I did not get the response that I was looking for. But it was really really important to me
Carolyn Cochrane 0:34
is the sound like the saying? Come on get
we'll make you
Kristin Nilsen 0:48
welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society. The podcast for people born in the big wheel generation who started babysitting before they were old enough to stay home by themselves. We believe
Michelle Newman 1:01
they were so clever and it's a very clever one yet.
Carolyn Cochrane 1:05
We believe our Gen X childhoods gave us unforgettable songs, stories, characters and images. And if we don't talk about them, they'll disappear. But Marshall will and Holly on a routine expedition.
Michelle Newman 1:15
And today we'll be saving the movie that predicted the future of millions of Gen X children. Kramer versus Kramer. I'm Carolyn. I'm Kristen. And I'm Michelle and we are your pop culture preservationists.
Carolyn Cochrane 1:38
Soon as that started, I
Kristin Nilsen 1:39
was no movie. And I had forgotten about that.
Kramer vs Kramer the divorce drama starring Dustin Hoffman and a young Meryl Streep opened on December 19 1979, right in the middle of my sixth grade year, right when I was becoming cognizant of people's family situations, most notably whether or not there was a dad in the home. And after it's released, it quickly became more than a movie. It was, according to Vanity Fair, a cultural benchmark, a snapshot of the fractured American family. So my parents were married. But I was strangely fascinated with this movie. And I was deeply invested in it success, maybe because of this growing awareness that I had of other people's family situations. Or maybe because I was being let into the adult world of dramatic movies for the first time. And I felt ready for it. Did you guys see the movie when it came out? Were you aware of it?
Carolyn Cochrane 2:42
Yes, I saw that movie. I saw it with my best friend, her mom and my mom. So the four of us went together, which I thought was really interesting. Now looking back, because as you just said, Kristen, it was this adult world a dramatic movie that was all about adults. Yet my mom and Debbie's mom thought, yeah, let's bring our teenage girls with us. Which I thought was, was really interesting. And I'll add on to that, that I asked Andy if he had ever seen it. And he said, Oh, yes, I saw it on Christmas night. 1979. Our whole family they made a tradition of going to movies on Christmas night. And the whole Cochran clan went to see Kramer vs. Kramer, which was an interesting choice for Christmas. Merry Christmas. But yeah, I don't know about you guys. But um, so many people I know saw it with their parents. Yeah.
Kristin Nilsen 3:34
Yeah. And I think part of that could be that. In those days, we just didn't have so many movies to choose from. And you saw what was in the theater, and it was rated PG, right? Yeah. And
Carolyn Cochrane 3:46
I wouldn't have even when I, you know, on winter break with my friends, that's not a choice I'm going to make when I get dropped off at the movie theater. So I'm not gonna probably see Kramer vs. Kramer. Unless I'm going with an adult like a parent who says, Let's go to the movies together and see this. I would not have seen it on my own. I don't think Yeah. And
Michelle Newman 4:05
I feel like I don't I don't think I saw the movie when it came out. Like in the theater, although it's certainly possible. I mean, I'd seen Annie Hall with my mom and 1977 So you know, it wouldn't surprise me. Although my memories of that time. 1979 So I December 1979. I'm 10 my memories of it is our like you just said, Carolyn, that was a movie that we went and saw. And I think it has something to do with what you just said, Kristen, because there weren't a ton. For me. It was all about Billy it was all about the little boy. I just know that I have very definite feelings and memories of sadness and weight associated with this movie. I just also know I saw it multiple times.
Kristin Nilsen 4:49
So you probably saw it too at home on HBO on VHS.
Michelle Newman 4:54
Yeah, somehow and it doesn't really doesn't matter. No, it doesn't matter when I saw it where I saw it like you You guys just said it's entirely possible it was in the theater because it's a 54 year old me going well, I wouldn't have seen that in the theater. I was going to see something like Greece, or
Kristin Nilsen 5:09
exactly our parents.
Michelle Newman 5:12
This was a movie though that was talked about and we all saw, yes. All the kids saw it. Everybody listening right now is probably nodding their heads going, oh, yeah, I saw that. When I was eight 910.
Carolyn Cochrane 5:22
Right. And I think you know, to your point, Christian, there probably weren't a whole lot of choices. But at the same time, I'm interested to know how many of our followers because I think so many know this movie. So their parents probably made a choice that we are going to bring our kids along because my parents went to the movies by themselves all the time. It wasn't like they would have needed to get a babysitter for me if they were going to go to the movies. And it was interesting that my mom chose to see it with a with another girlfriend. Like she didn't go with my dad. It was like a girls night out. And I only think I saw it once, up until two nights ago, or Three nights ago when I watched it again. But oh my gosh, I cannot believe how much I remembered of it. Like this movie. I think what you said, Michelle, it just, it affected me so deeply. Like, I can't even put words to it. I've been trying to think of how to describe this to you. I can only say that. I when I saw it, I'd only seen two other movies that had affected me so deeply. And that would have been Brian song and love story. And I think it was that realization that you can love something so much. And yet, you can still lose it. Like no matter how much you love something. It's it can go away so quickly. Whether it's Yeah, Billy or it's Ali McGraw. Or it's Brian Piccolo, I don't know. But it was this deep sense like a guttural ache that I have when I watched it the other night. Like that's how much it affected me. And I remembered it I remembered like what the next line was gonna be and honestly, is
Kristin Nilsen 6:57
cash because I have not I did not have HBO. I did not have this on VHS. I might have seen it on, you know, on somebody else's VHS somewhere at some point. But in my memory, I've only seen it the one time in the theater. And I just like you could remember an expression. I knew what was coming next. I knew the words that would be spoken next. I am so fascinated with how that gets into your brain. And it must have something to do with how it was tapping into our emotions. And that's one of the successes of this movie. For me it was it was probably the first adult drama that I saw. And I went with my dad who clearly thought this adult divorce drama was accessible to me. And he wasn't wrong because I was totally taken with the story. And we left my sister at home with a babysitter. I don't know where the rest of my family was. And my friend harmony was going to be babysitting my sister. And in the middle of the movie. They silenced the movie. And an announcement comes over the loudspeaker. Would Gordon Nelson, please come to the lobby for a phone call. Gordon Nelson, please come to the lobby. So harmony the babysitter was calling the theater. Remember how you would always use the phone number, center
Michelle Newman 8:09
restaurant, you're going to the movies and yes, the movie theater and here's
Kristin Nilsen 8:14
the movie theater, but you never call those numbers? Because that's what you did for an emergency. So of course I'm like, what has happened to my sister. And he is like you stay here all go out in the lobby. So apparently what had happened was that we had a big Collie dog and the dog she said the dog wouldn't let her off the bed.
Michelle Newman 8:36
She She was trapped on
Kristin Nilsen 8:39
a bed. Yeah. She said she was sitting on my parent's bed and the she said the dog was barking at her and growling at her when she tried to get off the bed. And she called the theater she well that's
Carolyn Cochrane 8:50
kind of scary. The best I've ever sat on the bed of the people like that I babysat for that's like
Kristin Nilsen 8:55
Do you think that's why the dog was angry?
Carolyn Cochrane 8:59
parents bedroom and sits on the bed. I have an issue with that harmony. But also
Michelle Newman 9:03
in defensive harmony if she didn't come from a dog family. She didn't explore this. Yeah, I just yeah, let's unpack this. Yeah, but yeah, snares forget about Kramer versus bed. I'm just thinking as someone who didn't come from a dog family if your dog was growling and barking that's kind of scary. Maybe
Kristin Nilsen 9:21
she was terrified. And my dad was very nonplussed. And he just told her, it's fine. The dogs not going to hurt you just get off the bed. And clearly it was fine. But to your point, she didn't have a dog and so she thought this was like a wild animal that was going to attack her when she tried to get off the bed. So I'm so my heart is racing and I have to get back into this movie, which we successfully but it's a memory that I'll never get rid of because you're like somebody died. Somebody died my house burned down. Harmon is calling the theater to tell us that the house burned down. Like we
Michelle Newman 9:51
need harmony. Could you call in please. This could be like a really traumatic experience that she's still to this day is in therapy over it's quite possible. Can we just go back now just quickly to and then we'll get back to harmony, everyone, don't worry. But I just wanted to go back to Kramer vs. Kramer for a second. What you guys were just saying made me think it's possible. I didn't see him multiple times now because we didn't have HBO. We didn't you know, maybe it's stuck with me just because the one or two times I saw it and I'll get into that in a little bit about why this movie resonated with me and hit me so hard. But do you guys remember to this wasn't unusual during this time for movies like this, where it's like a big star, but then they throw a kid in. And our parents are like, they want to go to the movies. It's PG they take us I just was the one that came to mind instantly that I also saw on the theater. I don't know what year it came out. But probably age eight or nine was the goodbye girl. Oh, that one of my favorite movies. Right? I'll re watch that again once a year. And then you throw in. Yeah, you know, the cute little girl. And you know, Quinn Cummings, who we all adored. We all wanted to be Lucy. Right? Well, let's
Kristin Nilsen 10:58
be honest. Our parents were not going, Oh, I think the kids would enjoy this film. They're going it's PG my kids are allowed. And there's
Michelle Newman 11:05
a child at it. So because that's what the movies, that's what the movies were like, but right so so Kramer versus Kramer was kind of along that same vein, really? Totally.
Kristin Nilsen 11:14
It was Yeah. So when the film came out, it had only been 10 years since California became the first state to pass a no fault divorce law, which meant that you could file for divorce without any claim of wrongdoing. Prior to that you had to prove in a court of law that someone had done something that deemed them unworthy of your partnership, you had to prove that you had the right to divorce them. So clearly, this allowed for much easier divorces and the divorce rates soared. Women in particular, were being given permission essentially to leave unhappy marriages simply because they were unhappy. Whereas prior to that, I think the word trapped is probably how a lot of unhappy people felt. And we focus a lot on women because the Women's Liberation Movement had grown out of the restrictions that society had set up for them, which was not a recipe for happiness for many. For many people. It felt like you were basically giving up opportunities for growth and fulfillment in exchange for spending long days with small children. You know, while your husband climbs the corporate ladder and gets increasingly compensated for his labor and comes home to beautiful children cared for by somebody else, equals divorce. So maybe this is one of the reasons that Kramer vs Kramer was so successful. The US gross of Kramer vs. Kramer would total more than $106 million, making it the biggest domestic moneymaker of 1979. Remember, it didn't come out until December 19. Yes, that's a crazy biggest moneymaker beating out much more likely candidates like Star Trek and alien, it made more money than alien. This was a blockbuster. And I just want to compare that for a moment to what would be a blockbuster today, Barbie aside because Barbie has so many more legs. So we're gonna take Barbie out of the equation. But today you're talking about Marvel, you're talking about action movies, you're talking about sequels series movies, today, Kramer vs. Kramer would be considered an independent film.
Michelle Newman 13:16
I was just about to say those are the independent films now. Right. And
Carolyn Cochrane 13:20
you think of those blockbusters you mentioned now Kristen, they have like mega stars, like you know, those people, they're in front of us all the time. It's, you know, that's another reason you're going is to see all of these people, those Marvel movies, they have like 10 Super Mega stars in it. In this case, really Dustin Hoffman was the only name anyone you know, would have been name that anyone had heard of. So yeah, that's another interesting fact to this movie. It's not like we were, are we were going or our parents were going to see this, you know, long list of mega stars, right? Unlike today's mega movies, right?
Michelle Newman 13:54
Yeah, good point,
Kristin Nilsen 13:56
one person. So the I just and it makes me a little bit sad about society today, to be honest, like, are we now given opportunities to think and feel and talk about things on a grand scale? And instead, all we can do is sit there and be entertained? And then we leave and there is nothing to talk about. Right?
Carolyn Cochrane 14:17
What do you talk about? I
Kristin Nilsen 14:18
talk about after a Marvel movie, I No offense to the people who love Marvel, escape. Escapism is great, and everybody deserves escapism. But where are the opportunities to have a nice conversation not about the movie,
Michelle Newman 14:32
intent to want to to sit there and be immersed for two hours in just a good story? Just a story, a layered complex story. When I rewatched this last week with Brian. Oh my gosh, we probably had a 30 minute discussion after and he had seen it. Like you said Andy went and saw it. He didn't go on Christmas night, but he's like, oh, yeah, I saw that in the theater. I mean, boy at age, you know, at the time he was, well, he was your interest and he's you know, he was 11 Yeah, why did he miss you Kramer versus Kramer. But what have an opportunity to have a great either and it could be a debate, but just to have a good discussion about you. That's
Kristin Nilsen 15:11
a great word to use. It provides opportunities for us to hash things out and think about how other people live. Or maybe think about our own experience. It allows us to process it allows us to get closer to people. As we talk about these tough issues. You don't get closer to people talking about Marvel. No.
Carolyn Cochrane 15:29
And speaking of opportunity, these independent films now they kind of go to these niche II theaters. You no they're not at the AMC Metroplex 16 screen place that you have to kind of seek them out. And if you
Kristin Nilsen 15:45
don't live in a metropolitan area, yet, you won't see them. Or they're straight
Michelle Newman 15:49
to streaming
Carolyn Cochrane 15:50
or they're yet true. And you want to be able to afford streaming and have access to streaming Skype, but
Michelle Newman 15:55
also and you lose the movie experience.
Kristin Nilsen 15:57
And the independent movies don't have PR budgets, so they might be on streaming, but how would you know, right? Because nobody's telling you about it. This is a problem. Back
Carolyn Cochrane 16:07
in our day, just it was so much better. Right?
Kristin Nilsen 16:11
So the story of Kramer versus Kramer is about an upper Eastside, New York City family the Kramer's, Ted Joanna and six year old Billy their son. Ted is a successful advertising executive and Joanna stays at home with Billy. And when Ted comes home one day he finds that Joanna is leaving him. And Billy, she's not taking Billy. She is not happy. And she is going to California to figure things out. Ted, of course, is completely unprepared. He had no idea about her unhappiness and frankly, doesn't care care to hear about it either. And he has no experience taking care of Billy. Billy knows this. He senses it. And he pushes the boundaries with Ted's authority, knowing full well that Ted has no parenting skills. Their relationship is rocky and stressful. And Ted works to balance his big advertising job with single fatherhood. But over time, he and Billy find their rhythm. And this movie begins to be about a father and son repairing their relationship, and it's really quite beautiful. That is when Joanna comes back. She doesn't want to head back. But she does want Billy and a brutal custody battle ensues. Giving the movie its name Kramer versus Kramer. And that's when this movie becomes a courtroom drama. It's an extremely personal and painful courtroom drama, because unlike other courtroom dramas, this one involves a family, not criminals. And we're not exactly sure who the bad guy is.
Carolyn Cochrane 17:40
Speak for yourself. Man, you guys, this is how much I think this film impacted me. My 13 year old brain thought Meryl Streep was the bad guy that Joanna was the bad or bad woman. So much so that I figured out that is why I'm not a fan of Meryl Streep. That's my hot take everybody.
Kristin Nilsen 18:01
Okay, I mean, like, huge Carolyn.
Carolyn Cochrane 18:06
You know, and she'll be in it. Yeah, she's a great actress. Don't get me wrong. I immediately when she comes on the screen, something in me just is like, I don't care if she's just this great. I don't care if she's in Mamma Mia. I don't even see Mamma Mia. Probably because
Kristin Nilsen 18:19
of that it imprinted on you. It did it just left this
Carolyn Cochrane 18:24
kind of. Oh, that anytime I'd see your face or hear her voice. It just didn't sit right. I know. Isn't that awful? I'm sorry. Oh, no.
Kristin Nilsen 18:32
Credit to Meryl Streep. Job, John Merrill.
Carolyn Cochrane 18:37
And I could not separate my body can't separate that. Yeah, yeah,
Michelle Newman 18:42
that's what that's what we're going back that you've had this long and you saw it once. And you've had this decades long. It left a Deaf decades long mark on you. So yes, Christine. Like you said, I'll credit to Meryl Streep. But I find that really
Carolyn Cochrane 18:58
like powerful, right. Yeah. And even now I tried in this rewatch to like, Okay, I'm gonna see things from her side. And maybe I could, logically and rationally, but somehow still inside me little 13 year old Carolyn is like, pitch like, don't do that. You're mean, and then you use some of that stuff against, you know, against Dustin Hoffman? Oh, yeah. So anyway, that's, that was my take. I was not torn really between the two of them. I
Michelle Newman 19:28
thought I was coming to this conversation with a really unpopular opinion. And I'm, I'm not a parent. But because my opinion comes from my own experience with the story. So my opinion is really authentic for me. And I was about to say, I'm not going to apologize for it. But Karen fine. No. Sorry, Kristen. Perhaps I'm not gonna apologize. But for me. So Joanna's argument is that she left for Billy right. So she could be a better mother but Got a child won't see that, ever. So this is where it gets really muddy for me as a child who was pulled in two directions pretty much from birth, and ultimately was removed from seeing my father by my mother when he wanted me and my sister to live with him. So we had a little custody issue, but I mean, let's not forget to split the blame here. And my father seemingly allowed it. I don't know, because he died before I could talk to him again. But I've been broken for most of my life. And even as a 54 year old adult, I cannot understand or even forgive Joanna's at. For me, Joanna, sacrificing Billy to better herself might have certainly been what she needed to do. And yes, in a roundabout way for Billy. He loses. And to me, it's selfish. And Joanna is the bad guy. And it's just so complicated. And gray for me, because I'm bringing a lot of my personal baggage to the situation. I felt like watching it as a 54 year old woman last week, I tried really hard to see her side of it. And this was the 30 minute discussion, Brian and I had we just both we it's complicated, right? But we both agreed that when you become a mother, though, you have to put your child first there had to have maybe been a way she could have still bettered herself, without leaving him and leaving that mark on his life forever. Get therapy in New York City. Do I don't know. I don't know what the solution is because I didn't write the book or the movie. But it just to me, no matter what she was trying to do, or what her intentions were, BILLY Lost and he will lose for the rest of his life. And I'm testament to that. Yeah,
Kristin Nilsen 21:43
it's not something that ever goes away. It becomes part of who you are. As never forget that what happened people listening right now we're like, yeah, that became part of my story. So I'm really glad I'm going last. I really was Team Ted. And I saw Meryl Streep as the bad guy in 1979. Weiss, when I saw it in sixth grade. But even as a sixth grader, I had sympathy for her. I was I was crushed, that she would leave her child. Because who could do that? Well, hello men do it all the time. How many of my friends had seen hadn't seen their dads in years, men do it every day. But we we judge women more harshly. But I also wondered about how deep her sadness must be to make her do something like that. I didn't know about the loneliness of relinquishing your opportunities in order to take care of small children. I do now. I didn't know that was a thing. But I knew she had to figure out what was wrong. And her poor kid was the victim of that conundrum. Now seeing it for seeing it just this week, for the first time probably since 1979. I had a brand new take on it. It was a take that we couldn't have had in 1979. There was only one reason that a woman leaves her child. And that's if she thinks that child, it's if she thinks she is bad for the child. And that is textbook depression. Meryl Streep, I mean, Joanna, not Meryl Streep, Joanna was depressed. And when you think that the best thing for your child is for you to leave that child. Of course, that's mythology, that's never going to be true. Unless you're horribly abusive, even then the leaving is going to be horribly scarring to your child. But for you to think that you are so small and unworthy as that your child would be better off without you is a hallmark of severe depression. Now, we didn't know that then. We had no idea today, we know what that is.
Michelle Newman 23:42
And that's why I feel like this issue. It's not black and white. It's so great. It's so funny. And it's so complicated. And even as someone who came from a situation it's not even really similar, but the weight of Billy and the feelings and everything I identified with I can still see everything you just said Kristen, and I can agree with what you're saying. There's just something and me that no matter how much therapy I've had, or whatever, I will always I'm not ever to the point yet where I can even forgive because I don't know the whole story of even what happened in my family. But all I know is how it affected me my whole life and how broken I've always felt and how sad and and and why and and everything so
Kristin Nilsen 24:30
it's your you're hated that lives in your hurts. You can't Yeah,
Michelle Newman 24:34
you can't I can't say that my opinion and is right and yours is wrong. I can see both. I just it's it's it's
Kristin Nilsen 24:43
complicated. It doesn't make it any easier for the cow
Michelle Newman 24:45
and so many of these stories that you hear not just and maybe if they would have explored Meryl Streep's story a little bit more. It we could have all gotten on board a little bit more with maybe feeling a little bit of empathy, empathy, whatever for her, and that we did hear a lot about, about her except for that she was saying, you know, I was always taken care of by my father I was that I was taken care of by my husband, it's time for me to take care of myself. had we gotten a little bit more of her if she was suffering from depression you do I agree with you. You do her friend alludes to it too that she's been feeling this way for a long time and all this kind of stuff. I all I know to say is that it's muddy. It's complicated, and I don't have an answer all i All we can all do is bring our own experience to it. Yeah, sure.
Kristin Nilsen 25:33
There are no good answer. No,
Carolyn Cochrane 25:35
no, no. It's interesting as I listened to you, Michelle, how you just kind of saw it through Billy's eyes, I realized I kind of saw it through Dustin Hoffman's eyes. He's the one that I felt for, like, how dare you? He worked so hard. I think the unfair is going through my head the whole time. Again, you can love something so much you can do the right things. You can become this better person, this better dad, you could still lose this thing that you loved. And yes, we can forgive or understand maybe where Meryl Streep's character was coming from. But you know what she said when she was on that stand in that courtroom? And they weren't, she was a bitch. You're mean. I mean, I couldn't get over that part. It was so unfair. And I just ached for Dustin. I mean, and I ached for Billy too. But my just empathy really went like he was doing all the right stuff. He became this better person. And still Still he was going to lose this child. And oh,
Kristin Nilsen 26:33
well, although what would you do Carolyn to get your child back? Would you throw somebody under the bus?
Carolyn Cochrane 26:38
I wouldn't throw the dad I wouldn't throw the my child's dad under the bus. I might throw his my mother in
Michelle Newman 26:45
law coming from I don't know an experience where one of my my my mother or my father, they throw each other under the bus all the time. They had such a contentious relationship. But you said you're feeling for Dustin Hoffman? I think one of the reasons. I this movie stuck with me so much is because since I related to a lot of the heavy feelings Billy carried, I feel like I was probably at that age projecting myself onto him. Oh, for sure. Which is why all my memories of this movie are centered around Billy. When I watched it again the other night. I knew what he was going to do next. I knew how he was going to eat. I knew he was going to grab that ice cream. I knew everything Billy was going to do. I didn't remember anything. Dustin Hoffman or Meryl Streep was about to do really wow. But everything was Billy. So if I saw it once, if I saw it 10 times. And let's not forget, this is also the year that this whole custody thing happened with my parents. Oh, in 1979. So I'm at Yeah, this movie comes out in December. The last time I saw my dad was in July of 1979. And I didn't know that at the time that that was going to be the last time I ever saw my dad. I was kept away from him. So this is all coming out. Right when all these feelings are so so big. Heavy me. Yeah. Not to say that you guys are people listening are like, Well, jeez, how heavy must they have been?
Kristin Nilsen 28:11
That's fine. That's No, but that is so significant. The timing of that could not have been more impactful for you, Michelle, and that shows how all three of us come to it with different perspectives. And you know, was it a childlike perspective was that your maturing perspective was, it's so so interesting to me. So much of our research is coming from a Vanity Fair article that excerpted the Meryl Streep biography called her again becoming Meryl Streep, which is by Michael Schulman. And in this article, they tell us that the story of Kramer versus Kramer is actually based on a novel by Avery Corman who wanted to counteract the toxic rhetoric. I'm saying that with quotation marks around it his words that he had been hearing from feminists who've he felt lumped all men together as again his words, a whole bunch of bad guys. That's a pretty dark point of view. And in the end, I think that message of I think it's safe to say misogyny really, it was altered in the movie, that message was altered to make a much more nuanced story. And the credit for that goes almost entirely to one person and that is Meryl Streep. Wow.
Carolyn Cochrane 29:16
That's incredible. And you know, what? Can you imagine how different this movie would have been? If Meryl Streep hadn't been cast in the role of Joanna? It would have been a totally different film. Yeah. And you guys, she almost wasn't. She was not only not the first choice, she wasn't the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth choice. She was not even on the radar. Let's just say her first major film, Dr. Hunter had not been released yet. So she wasn't a name that the director had ever heard of. The first choice and the person they were going to was Kate Jackson.
Michelle Newman 29:54
Oh my gosh.
Carolyn Cochrane 29:56
I just want to let everyone know it's that Kate Jackson. It is I've seen in Charlie's Angel, this is our Charlie's Angel. She was the first choice. They felt like she had the name recognition, the beauty that they were looking for. And she was their go to. But you guys, another serendipitous thing I guess, Aaron Spelling would not let her out of the Charlie's Angels production schedule. It was you think about it. It was Aaron Spelling that really changed the course of this movie had Kate Jackson been allowed to do the film. Who knows? And
Kristin Nilsen 30:27
I love Kate Jackson. Don't get I want him to be Sabrina. Right? But that makes it and again, no disrespect to Kay Jackson as an actor, but that pulls it into a movie of the week as opposed to a totally an Oscar winner. It might have been maybe it would have been blockbuster. I don't know. But it's a different movie. Oh,
Carolyn Cochrane 30:46
my gosh, when you listen, listen to just how different Meryl made it okay. Luckily Meryl and the movie director Robert Benton shared an agent in that man's name is Sam cone. And Sam convinced Benton to give Meryl an audition to least let her get through the door because they
Kristin Nilsen 31:02
don't know who she is. They've never heard of this woman. No baiting
Michelle Newman 31:04
isn't that weird? Word. No one's heard of Meryl Streep, right? Totally
Carolyn Cochrane 31:08
crazy. So imagine this, I just can only I can picture this. She goes to the audition. She walks into this room full of men. And Dustin Hoffman asks her what she thinks of the story. So she's, you know, read the novel. And she told him this is what she thought and she said it in no uncertain terms that they had the character of Joanna all wrong. She insisted that Joanna's reasons for leaving Ted, as it currently stood in that in the manuscript. They're just too hazy. We needed to understand being the audience why she comes back for custody. When she gives up Billy in that final scene, it should be for the boys sake, not for us. The original storyline had Joana as the villain with her leaving Billy for selfish reasons, all focused on what she needed. And Merrill said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is not happening. That is not a true reflection of the real struggle that women are going through right now across the country. And the audience should feel some sympathy for her, even though Carolyn didn't. And if they wanted Meryl for this role, they needed to do rewrites. And that's her story. And that's what she told Ms. Magazine. So Wow, can we just take a minute and say, What a pivotal moment this is for the movie, the entire plot trajectory was was refocused because Meryl Streep had the balls to go into this room full of men and say, excuse me, II got this all wrong. Okay, this is a moment like, can we just take a moment I might not like her as the character Joanna. And but I love her for this. I love her for going in and saying I'm not going to do this. And it's not like she was a big name and like she was. So she had the gumption. And now we can see that and all that she does. But I think we can say that her performance in the movie as Joanna was stellar. But I would argue that her brazen performance in that audition room full of men, and asserting that she wouldn't even consider the part is her most important role in the making of Kramer vs. elevated
Kristin Nilsen 33:11
the movie from again a movie of the week. Right? A woman who leaves her child because she wants to play tennis in California is a villain. And that's a made for TV movie. Meryl Streep turned it into an Oscar winner. She
Michelle Newman 33:23
did? Yes. I love they say in the article, the like director, their producer kind of looked at each other because they were like, does she know that she's in here to audition for the neighbor? Margaret? Yeah, like, does she know that sense? Isn't. And it wasn't a Dustin Hoffman? Who was like, No, that's Joanna. Right.
Carolyn Cochrane 33:40
You know, Dustin Hoffman was the one who said that's our Joanna. And after reading this article, I kind of gotta say, I don't know, if I still love Dustin Hoffman as much as I used to. I don't think I do. The reason that he says she's our Joanna. You know, part of it, I'm sure is her on this soapbox saying all these things. But he also knew that she had just experienced and horrific loss of her boyfriend of two years. And she was in the midst of incredible grief. And he knew that he could tap into that grief. Some not so nice ways to to elicit that vulnerability and that fragility that you were talking about in this character. Basically,
Kristin Nilsen 34:23
he smelled her weakness, he smelled her vulnerability, not her strength. That is what convinced him that she had to be the Joana and I also have to point out that her boyfriend who died was I can't remember his name. John, thank you. He was Fredo in The Godfather so Fredo I thought he got blown up in the boat in The Godfather three but No, Mike was like, No, he got shot. He got she went out fishing in the boat and he got shot when
Michelle Newman 34:49
it was also her co star in The Deer Hunter as well. Yes. So yeah, they had had this beautiful love story. And he he tragically died. Cancer and right before, you know, before her audition, but yeah, and despite of how great of an actor Dustin Hoffman was and how much everybody loved him in 1979 I mean, he was the hot thing. It does. It sounds like he was a real jackass to everyone during filming. In the name of his art, yes. And while he while he wanted Meryl Streep for the role of Joanna, once they began filming, he used all sorts of horrible tactics to draw emotions out of her and the other actors, namely, little Justin Henry, who played Billy, few examples.
Kristin Nilsen 35:35
And we have to label this this is method acting, right? So he would, he thinks he's not being a jackass. He thinks he's being a method act really. Right.
Michelle Newman 35:43
Right. Right. So yeah, so
Carolyn Cochrane 35:45
yeah, exactly. But yeah, let's chat about what he did. So
Michelle Newman 35:49
yeah, second day of filming. It's the elevator scene outside the apartment door, right when Meryl Streep leaves the beginning of the movie, and obviously there needs to be a lot of emotion on her part. So Dustin is going to take it upon himself to make sure she is projecting the emotion that he feels she needs to be projecting. So right before her entrance, Dustin slapped her across the cheek. If you know this, you can see the red mark, if you note a look because I hadn't read this before I rewatched it last week, and I was like it's right there. I see the red mark on her cheek. The director is aghast things she's going to report them to the Screen Actors Guild. But it's Merrill effing street and she goes right on with the scene. She shows her line and she delivers it with the emotion she was going to have that she had prepared. Anyway, let's not forget this was the woman who walked in and pretty much changed the entire background of the character. Then in her last tearful moments of that same scene. When Joanna tells Ted she doesn't love him anymore. The cameras are just on just on Meryl Streep. Outside the elevator and outside the shot. Dustin Hoffman starts jabbing her with remarks about John because out her lover who had just died in real life of cancer. goading her talking about him. Meryl apparently went absolutely white. And she left in a rage. The director said well, it's day two and Kramer vs. Kramer has just turned into street versus sober. Yeah. What's her shocking It's shocking. It's shocking. It's abuse. 12. And there's more. But wait.
Kristin Nilsen 37:26
There's more. It's so egregious. It's so egregious. He
Michelle Newman 37:30
took Dustin Hoffman took it on himself to like we said to get the response he thought the actor should be given to make sure little Justin Henry is crying authentically when he falls off the monkey bars. And you guys it is a shot that is a second on some fraction of a fraction of a second on the screen. Dustin Hoffman leaned close to him and told him had never seen all the crew members again that had become such good friends with also in other scenes to get him to make sure he correct cry hit tell him to imagine losing his beloved dog. Imagine. Imagine Sparky dies. I don't know if that. You remember
Kristin Nilsen 38:03
all these stories about the little rascals and how abusive it was. This is exactly the same as their little rascals.
Michelle Newman 38:10
I don't like knowing that. This is like, this is like the time. My friend my college roommate worked at Disneyland and told me what Space Mountain looks like with the lights on. Oh, geez. I don't want to know that. I don't want to know. I don't want to know this about Dustin Hoffman. His most dangerous move, though, was the scene. Towards the end of the movie. When Ted and Joanna are at the table in the restaurant. She's come back. She's meeting with him. She's gonna tell him you know, she wants Billy back. He quietly made sure the cameraman had his wineglass in the shot. And at the end, when Ted gets up to stock out, unscripted, he smacked the glass. And it shattered against the brick wall. Watch the movie, everyone. It's shattered, brick wall, raining glass bits into Merrill's hair. She jumps in the scene. That's real. That is a real reaction because that she had no idea he was going to do that. Apparently, they do cut. She says next time you do that, I'd appreciate you letting me know. It's really
Kristin Nilsen 39:07
it's it's a form of not trusting your fellow actors to use their craft. As if everything is dependent on me and I have to surprise you to elicit something real instead of depending on your skill.
Michelle Newman 39:19
Yeah, again, though, I wish I didn't know it.
Kristin Nilsen 39:22
I know. Totally. You know,
Carolyn Cochrane 39:23
to your point, Kristen. Yes, it's method acting. I understand that. It's but why don't you say something like, can you channel your grief and you know that you're writing right now or like I think of Michael Landon and the way Melissa has shared with us how he got her to cry. It was very fatherly and gentle me
Kristin Nilsen 39:43
guiding her. Yes,
Michelle Newman 39:45
exactly. Tell her I loved her.
Carolyn Cochrane 39:47
Yeah. But again, to your point, Kristen, it's not trusting your fellow actor and thinking that you're you run the show. So that's what got me and that there was just no consent. Like next time tell me you're gonna smash Just the glass that was just very abusive and the slap the slap is like he's slapped a woman in the face here is because he went up and slaps you just you don't do that it's
Kristin Nilsen 40:11
you can call the police for that. Yeah, so
Carolyn Cochrane 40:13
how cocky was Dustin Hoffman to think that hockey
Kristin Nilsen 40:16
is the word that is exactly right. He he thought this was his movie and what he said went and he was going to go to extremes to make it good. Even if it was abusive of people, the idea of him whispering and a little six year olds ear, that you're never going to see these people again, all of us these people that have become your friends. You're never going to see him again. How can you do that to a child and watch that child weep? But you know that he when the child is weeping is like, sweet, I did it. Yeah.
Michelle Newman 40:43
And then up and walks away. Yeah. What
Carolyn Cochrane 40:46
do you get on someone? It's Yes. So may
Kristin Nilsen 40:49
love to talk to Justin Henry, I would like to talk to him and ask because that's trauma. That's a traumatic thing that happened to them. And I would like to ask him, What are your memories of that movie? And how do you feel about how they elicited emotion from you? And
Michelle Newman 41:05
it's it's sociopathic if you really think about it? Uh, huh. What's going on reading my bedtime stories?
Unknown Speaker 41:11
Mommy, well, maybe nine anymore that I won't be able to do that. But, you know,
Speaker 1 41:20
I get to visit it's gonna be okay. Really? What do you mean if you don't like it? You're gonna have a great time with. Really? She loves you so much. Well, forget one super good. Just call me up. Okay. We're gonna be okay
Carolyn Cochrane 41:56
when they cast, Justin Henry, in the part of Billy, as we remember from the movie, he's blind. He does not look anything like Dustin Hoffman. And Dustin Hoffman was like, oh, no, like, this kid is supposed to look like me. I mean, like, how cocky is that? It takes the sperm and an egg. Like they're two people that make the baby why you think this child has to look like you? And I'm curious if he ever kind of got over it. And I loved the reasoning behind why they cast Justin Henry. It was that he would be too. Ted. The constant reminder of Joanna he was more like Joanna Seaver. Yeah, when he looked at Justin,
Michelle Newman 42:33
and there's just a lot of little other tidbits too. I mean, the woman who was originally cast to play the neighbor, Margaret, he made her so uncomfortable. And he any he chastised her so much for making sure she knew her lines, and she delivered them the correct way that she developed a stutter. And she couldn't even said her lines. So they replaced her with someone who had worked with him on all the President's mess PTSD. The first time he walked it, yeah, this woman what didn't even get to be in this Oscar movie, because she's because of him. When he first walked into the set of his apartment, he said, This isn't what it should look like. And the set decorators had to completely redo it.
Kristin Nilsen 43:11
That was very interesting watching this as an adult now because although we were all Team Ted, as an adult, I could watch TED now. And I did and I'm not teen Ted, I have a great deal of respect for how he overcame his difficulties. But it was 1979. And I was able to see his misogyny I was able to see his bullying of women, I was able to see how he stands just too too close to women, how he's too familiar how he touches them in ways that are would not be comfortable for me. There's a scene where he when he finally gets a job, he walks through a party and he grabs women, he kisses her on the lips, and then lets her go and keeps going. Today, that would be called assaults. But back then it was like he was celebrating. I'm so happy. I'm just gonna kiss this woman on the lips. But that was Ted Kramer. And it was also Dustin Hoffman. I have the power. I mean, it might be a little short man's call.
Carolyn Cochrane 44:03
Well, I
Kristin Nilsen 44:04
was gonna say that I didn't want to, I'm gonna grab this power. And I'm going to wield it with all of its heft. Because if I don't, nobody will pay attention to me. And it's all in service of my art. So all of this that we're saying about him. I'm sure he doesn't give a fig because he's gonna say, I don't know, man, five Oscars. Well,
Carolyn Cochrane 44:20
and I think too, we could say it was 1979 I mean, we weren't really reacting and maybe our moms weren't even really no reacting like that's it that's just the way it is. You know, that's when think of our bra straps were getting you know flicked and shareable and all that so it it was reflective of the time sure his character but also that you could do that and everyone's like, you guys get to do that. Yeah, no worries.
Kristin Nilsen 44:45
Yeah, like he he kisses this woman on his way out from being offered a job nowadays if you kissed a woman like that on your way out from being offered that job that offer we rescind.
Michelle Newman 44:57
We never get a job again. Okay, you would notice This is a good place for me to bring up this question Brian and I just because of how familiar he was with Margaret, the neighbor who's rubbing her back he was yeah, we we are convinced. She has sister. We're like she must be a sister. She was a neighbor. I think he said something at the beginning like, sis and I was like, Brian, everything I just read said the role of the neighbor. It would have said the role of Ted's Sister, please. He massages her neck. They're very
Kristin Nilsen 45:26
they're always arm and arm he gives her on the forehead. Yeah. Is that standing too close to my personal bubble? The way he
Michelle Newman 45:34
touches her and hugs her clothes and rubs her back? You think? Well, she's obviously his sister. But see, I
Carolyn Cochrane 45:41
didn't think that at all. I was thinking, I hope they get together. I know like that. Oh, my happy ending at the end of the movie is that they? I know. Isn't that awful? I love that so much. I love that his Dustin's character, I wanted to have a happy ending. And in my mind, that meant, you know, being married and having a wife that you know, you loved and she loved you when you know these kids and you go to work and Yeah, well, and
Michelle Newman 46:04
again, let's look at like, you know, you said you, you haven't liked Meryl Streep for so long. And we're like credit to Meryl Streep. We love Dustin Ha, I mean, like, even knowing all of this, I read all of this stuff before I watched it last week. And during the movie, I'm again like, Sure, good dad, always such a good dad,
Kristin Nilsen 46:22
there are some really interesting things about how this movie was made. In addition to the method acting, it was shot in sequence of the movie, the way the way you see the movie is how it was, it was shot. Most of the time when you shoot a movie, you it's all dependent on where the sets are in people's schedules, you might shoot the ending first and then you're going to do the beginning. And then you're going to do the off location parts and stuff like that. Kramer versus Kramer was shot in sequence because of Justin Henry, in order for him to understand what was happening in the story. So they would shoot it in real time. And they hope that this would help them experience the story and feel real emotions instead of acting. And I would say that worked. He would only be given the story or the script one day at a time he experienced it as if it was happening to him. And all of his direction would be coming through Dustin Hoffman, not the director. It was like Dustin Hoffman was his handler, all those whispered things in his ears, your dogs dying, you know, all that stuff that came from Dustin Hoffman. And Dustin Hoffman believed that this would then increase their bond on screen. And again, I think it did I think I think it worked. Yeah,
Carolyn Cochrane 47:31
I mean, yeah, fault the the if that's the result you wanted, that was the way to get it. I mean, yeah, that
Kristin Nilsen 47:38
aspect of it. And Vanity Fair says Dustin's methods elicited a child performance of uncommon nuance. Then we have the courtroom drama part of the movie. The first on the stand is Joanna Kramer, and the director had been struggling with her with Joanna's testimony, which he saw is absolutely crucial to the movie, and he wasn't happy with what he had written for her. He actually said, I don't think it's a woman's speech. I think it's a man trying to write a woman's speech, which is what it was. It was and it was important, because it was the one chance that Joanna has to make her case to us, the viewing audience, not just for custody of Billy, but really for her own personal redemption. And then by extension, redemption of all of the women who left their marriages in this era, she was really speaking for all the women, right? The stakes were huge. And so he asked Meryl to think about it. She misunderstood him. And she thought he was asking her to rewrite the testimony. So when shooting day, she hands him some papers, she's like, here's the script. And at first, he's annoyed. He's like, now. Now I'm going to have to hurt her feelings. We're gonna have to rearrange our shooting day, and now she's have to learn something different the ones that I wrote, but then he read it. And he was like, Oh, yes, this is it. And this just changed the ending of our movie. And Meryl Streep gets to say her piece,
Speaker 2 49:01
Mrs. Kramer. Can you tell the court why you are asking for custody? Because he's my child. And because I love him. I know I love my son. I know that that's a terrible thing to do. Believe me, I have to live with that every day of my life.
Unknown Speaker 49:28
But in order to leave him, I had to believe that it was the only thing I could do.
Speaker 2 49:36
And that it was the best thing for him. I was incapable of functioning in that home. And I didn't know what the alternative was going to be. So I thought it was not best that I take him with me. However, I've since gotten some help. And I have worked very, very hard to become a whole human being
Unknown Speaker 50:01
And I don't think I should be punished for that. And I don't think my little boy should be punished.
Kristin Nilsen 50:09
There's another part in that courtroom that is really notable. And it's one of those moments that I think that not just the three of us, but I think everybody was moved by we all remember it. It's the smallest of gestures, and we were all moved by it. So in cross examination, Dustin Hoffman's lawyer is very cruelly grilling Joanna, and he's asking her about the longest relationship she's ever had, which is Ted Kramer, and he said, Oh, so you're a failure at the longest relationship you've ever had. Now, prior to shooting that Dustin Hoffman had gone up to her and grilled her in the same way about her dead lover, John, because Al, that's the longest relationship you've ever had and you failed him. You failed him. And he directs Meryl Streep to look at him when his asshole lawyer is saying so you're a failure, the longest relationship you've ever had. And so she's she tearfully, like looks at Dustin Hoffman out of the corner of her eye. And Dustin Hoffman shakes his head. No, any mouse word? No, no, you weren't. And what he was trying to do is reassure Meryl Streep. No, you weren't a failure with John because Al, I'm just doing that to try and elicit this from you. You're okay. You're alright. But the director catches it. And he's like, wait, wait, wait, you just you just created a moment in this film. So they play it again. They do it exactly the same. And this becomes a moment and when Ted in which Ted Kramer is saying to Joanna, you are not a failure as a mother, you did not fail him. And it it changes your feelings. It breaks your heart right open. Yes. And he's just shaking his head and having the word no, that's all. Yeah,
Carolyn Cochrane 51:47
that was a moment I have to say that might have been my one little moment of feeling some empathy for Joanna's character. And those attorneys just the way they grill both of them you know, just akin for her her to look at him and assure her you were not a failure. I
Michelle Newman 52:04
feel like that whole scene just they're nuanced their their expressions, and their emotion that they convey without saying anything, both of them. That's that's the Oscar moments right there.
Kristin Nilsen 52:16
Wonder, I agree. Don't you wonder how many people were sitting in the in the audience considering leaving their spouses? Oh, 50% 50% of them. And what did that seem convinced them of doing? Don't write this will be too much. It's too painful. I can't do it. How many people stayed because they were revealing the horror of a custody battle. It was really quite awful. The cultural impact of this movie was huge. And it's also a story about the Oscars and feminism and the children of the Gen X era. Kramer vs. Kramer was nominated for nine Academy Awards, and it won five, including Best Picture Best Actor for Dustin Hoffman, Best Director and Best Adapted Screenplay, Meryl Streep one Best Supporting Actress against Barbara Barry for the movie breaking away. Candice Bergen from the movie starting over. And not one but two of her co stars from other movies she had been in this year. So Mariel Hemingway from Woody Allen's Manhattan and her co star and Kramer vs. Kramer, Jane Alexander, who is the neighbor. eight year old Justin Henry was nominated for Best Supporting Actor and he became the youngest Oscar nominee in history. But he lost and he lost to Melvin Douglas from the movie being there. Melvyn Douglas was 71 years older than Justin Henry. He wasn't 71 He was 71 years older than 78. And apparently, Justin Henry was so sad, had so much despair about losing his Oscar that he was crying sobbing inconsolably and somebody called over Christopher Reeve to see if you could sell him for Superman. They thought maybe Superman can help
Michelle Newman 54:03
him we'll shoot that's what Dustin Hoffman should have done when he fell off the monkey bars he should match and you're nominated for the Oscar and you lose to a really old man.
Kristin Nilsen 54:13
And then at the end of the night, Charlton Heston comes out he announces the winner for Best Picture It was a Kramer versus Kramer sweep of all of the big major awards. This is when I ran out of my bedroom where I was watching the Academy Awards on my 13 inch black and white pants portable Panasonic TV which I pulled into my bedroom and I shouted to my family, Kramer versus Kramer is the winner versus Kramer is the winner. And I don't really think they cared like I did not get the response that I was looking for. But it was really really important to me. So it was after the sweep this major announcement when everybody leaves the stage and you know they go to the little place the little stage where the reporters are asking them questions. This is where it gets a little bit dicey. So the column Minister Rona Barrett, you remember Rona Barrett? And everybody, right? She remarked that many women particularly feminists feel this picture was a slap to them. And Dustin Hoffman does not like that. Of course he's the first to speak. That wasn't said at all. That wasn't said at all. He said, I can't stop people from feeling what they're feeling. But I don't think everyone feels that way. So they are scrapping back and forth. Rona Barrett and Dustin Hoffman, when Meryl Streep comes running back up to the stage. And I love this. She says, Here comes a feminist. She's like, Get out of my way as all last paycheck do, you don't have a vagina? So let me speak.
Michelle Newman 55:33
And if you did, it would be tiny.
Kristin Nilsen 55:38
Meryl Streep says, I don't feel that's true at all. I feel that the basis of feminism is something that has to do with the liberating men and women from prescribed roles. And I have to tell you, that for me as a sixth grader, that's how I viewed this movie. Why was it seemed Ted not because I was anti Joanna. But I felt that people were not giving Ted the credit that he deserved for doing what people thought of as women's work, that it his child was taken away from him because he was a man. And that wasn't fair, that that Joanna won the custody battle because she's a woman. And that's not fair. So I felt it to be a movie about gender roles and how we depend on them no matter what the truth may be. It wasn't fair that Joanna got custody when the truth was that Ted had become the better parent at that moment in time. I took that to be a form of feminism. Even though the woman is supposedly the villain. It spoke to me personally about how people will try to put me in a box because I am a woman or a sixth grade girl, and that this story can also be reversed. And none of it is okay. None of it is okay.
Carolyn Cochrane 56:44
Right. I think that's the best definition of feminism. What she says right there. No mic drop, right? Yeah, exactly. Liberating men and women from prescribed roles. Exactly. Mic drop. Yeah. However, I
Michelle Newman 56:54
mean, I'll go back to saying like, the whole feminism aspect of this movie was completely lost on me in 1979, probably again in 1980 8182. Because I'm putting myself in Billy's shoes, right? Yeah. But watching it now. And especially after reading the article and thinking about it with this feminism lens. And knowing what the director and especially what Meryl were trying to portray, I can see her view on this and everything you said, Kristen, I'm nodding my head totally in agreement with However, once you throw Billy into it, how he's feeling about losing his mom, how he, oh my gosh, how much I could relate to hiding the photo of mom and the drawer. And I mean, my goodness, Ted got a million points in my mind for taking it back out and putting it on his nightstand when he found it. But in this movie, they've made the child and most of the stories we hear human to us. And so that's why I can never get fully on board with it. Because we know this child now we see this child and we see how it's how it's impacted him. So again, like I've said earlier, it's way too muddy and complicated for me to to pick a true stance on I just can't
Kristin Nilsen 58:08
because a child could never pick either. And I remember at the time thinking, why don't they just ask Billy, why do they have to what the judge doesn't know these people? Why don't they just ask Billy. But the truth is Billy doesn't have an answer either. Because Billy doesn't want to be taken away from his father. But that moment when he sees Joanna for the first time in 18 months, and he's running to his mother in Central Park, their rent, I'm going to start crying right now. And you're beautiful into her arms. He doesn't want to be apart from her. He can't choose either. And can
Michelle Newman 58:37
I tell you personal experiences when my dad the summer of 79. But like, in the summer of 79. And my dad tells my sister and I that he's going to we're going to go to court. And he wants us to come and live with him and my stepmom full time. And how would we like that? Would we like that I loved my daddy, you guys I loved him more than anything. I only got to saw see him a couple times a year. The thought though of not living with my mother broke me into a million pieces. But I couldn't say that to daddy, because I don't want to disappoint daddy. So of course I nod my head. Yes, that would be fine. I'm 10. But my sister is 13 and a half. So what he tells my sister is that she's old enough that the judge is going to take her in to the office and he's going to ask her who do you want to live with? And so my sister then has this extra weight and responsibility on her. So I again I I've been there you guys and it's it's a horrible thing for a child. So when I said Could they put Billy on? No, no, they shouldn't because look at Billy look from what you just said the way he ran to her after? What's he going to say? If he says Mommy, I'm going to disappoint daddy who's now but if I say daddy, that's my mommy. So as a child, I've been there and you are torn. Like I said I'm still broken. I'm still torn in two from that experience that I had. So it's, it's it is it's
Kristin Nilsen 1:00:05
such a winners, there are no one and
Carolyn Cochrane 1:00:07
we as, as a society just are so binary like it has to be your team Joanna or your team Ted. And you know, even asking a child, whether it's your sister or Billy, like it's one or the other, there's no, in between. And I feel like that's where it gets so difficult for so many of us on so many topics. It's like you almost have write us aside when? No, there's so much that goes into that. And why can't it be again, a both? And and why can't we get in, look at the hard stuff and talk about it and dissect it. And really, it's gonna be hard. Like, that's the thing we don't want. It's like, we don't want the pain. We don't want the hardware, like, just pick one side and forget the other. And I think that's the, just the foundation of just so much heartache. And just the difficulty of where we even are right now, whether it's politics and relationships, whatever. The
Kristin Nilsen 1:00:57
one place where this was something I didn't know in 1979, but I have a very visceral feeling of it now. And so when I watched the movie now it changes a little bit of how I see Dustin Hoffman. There was another critic who saw the movie who was sort of in line with Rona Barrett. And she said, leaving the theater with her teenage daughter, she felt manipulated by the movie and she was angry. And she said, why do we applaud the noble Self sacrifice of Ted Kramer, when the same thing is merely expected of Joanna? For 18 months, he learns how to be a parent when Joanna was there for the bulk of his life, and is just expected to have that relationship with the child. And she even says it Joanna says on the stand like I was his mommy for five and a half years. Ted did it for 18 months. How was he more divert deserving than me? Bill
Unknown Speaker 1:01:49
is only seven years old. He needs me. I'm not saying he doesn't need his father. But I really believe he needs me more. I was his mommy for five and a half years. And Ted took over that role for 18 months.
Speaker 2 1:02:17
But I don't know how anybody can possibly believe that I have less of a stake in mothering that little boy then Mr. Kramer does mother I miss
Kristin Nilsen 1:02:49
so this movie is about children of the Gen X era. It really is. It's a hallmark. It's a harbinger of the Gen X future. This speaks to us as a generation. It is one of the reasons we are the latchkey generation, the neglected generation. And we have a guest who's going to tell us why.
Carolyn Cochrane 1:03:05
We are so excited to continue this discussion next week with author Priscilla Gilman, whose relationship with Kramer versus Kramer is so strong that she included it in her memoir The critics daughter. Yeah.
Michelle Newman 1:03:18
And as the only one of the three of us who is a child of divorce, this book probably hit me in a different way than it did you two However, regardless of if you're a child of divorce or not, this book is so relatable because at its core, it's a memoir. It's a story about growing up and your often complicated relationship with your parents and your father in particular. Yeah.
Carolyn Cochrane 1:03:49
And that's speaking of relationships with fathers. That's what really touched me about Priscilla's book. So, again, regardless of whether you are actually a child of divorce, there's some deep meaning and moments in this book that struck me. I told Kristen and Michelle just it was the first time that somebody put into words, certain feelings that I've had and experiences with my dad. And I thought, oh my gosh, it wasn't just me who did this. And it really hit me in the core. So this book is amazing. And Priscilla was amazing. And I'm so glad we had the chance to, to chat with her. Yeah. So thank you all so much for listening today, and we can't wait to continue this discussion with you all next week. Today's episode was brought to you by Barbara, Charles, Jody, Jill, Sean, Melissa, Lorna. And Kristen, Carolyn and Michelle says Guess what? We have patron three patrons named Kristen, Carolyn and Michelle Oh, stop
Kristin Nilsen 1:04:50
it. Oh my friends.
Michelle Newman 1:04:52
We I think one of our newest patrons is Carolyn here another Carolyn. So Thanks, Carolyn. Yeah, Kristen, and Michelle. While these are just some of the listeners who support the PCPs with their Patreon memberships, and one time donations, just like your parents sent money to PBS so they could enjoy that Peter Paul and Mary concert. These are the people who make contributions so we can bring you these weekly episodes. If you'd like to join them, visit our website at pop preservationists.com.
Kristin Nilsen 1:05:23
In the meantime, let's raise our glasses for a toast courtesy of the cast of Three's Company. Two good times to Happy Days to
Carolyn Cochrane 1:05:31
Little House on the Prairie. Cheers, cheers.
Kristin Nilsen 1:05:36
The information opinions and comments expressed on the pop culture Preservation Society podcast belongs solely to Carolyn the crush ologists and hello Newman, and are in no way representative of our employers or affiliates. And though we truly believe we are always right, there's always a first time the PCPs is written produced and recorded in Minneapolis, Minnesota Home of the fictional w j m studios and our beloved Mary Richards Nananana. Keep on truckin and may the Force be with you
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