Judy Blume’s Forever…Living on Forever
Kristin Nilsen 0:00
I remember when your grandma watched the member drive on PBS and joined so she could get that sweet Peter Paul and Mary concert on VHS. Now you can do the same thing with the pop culture Preservation Society. Each of our episodes is created with the help of listeners like you, and you can become a financial supporter of the PCPs over on patreon.com to help us pay the bills and keep doing what we love. To show our appreciation, we'll send you welcome gifts and give you access to bonus content. Like video recordings of our episodes. After the episode discussions and blooper reels from the cutting room floor. Just go to patreon.com P A T R e o n type pop culture Preservation Society into the search bubble and choose the level of support that feels right for you. And if you're not able to contribute at this time, remember that listening is the most important form of support you could ever give. Thank you. Hi, everybody. Welcome to this encore episode devoted to the book forever by Judy Blume. We're just having a conversation with Carolyn and me today we're missing Michelle, because she is busy. We give her the day off because she's going to celebrate her birthday on the slopes on the slopes. She's one of those people now she is
Carolyn Cochrane 1:13
hitting the slopes. And you guys were so proud of her because she just learned how to ski since moving to Colorado. So it's like yes, winter has been months ago. Yes, like yes started. And on the little bunny hill. She wasn't on there very long before she was like heck with that I'm gonna you know, take it kick it up a notch. And she was mean gliding down. I mean, she looks like she goes back and forth and everything like Forest. Because sometimes her husband will take video of her. And we're so excited to see that. And it's like, that's legit. That's like real scheme. The other side of the mountain was like polio, and we're all so sad about bridges.
Kristin Nilsen 1:52
But this is very on brand for us. The fact that she is learning how to ski in her 50s. And it's like her new I don't want to use the word passion because that's overused. But wouldn't you say that this is Michelle's new thing? Oh,
Carolyn Cochrane 2:04
yeah, I don't think passion like granted, it's overused but truly fits is. She is all in they go like almost every weekend, which is so fun. And she and she really sincerely loves it. It's not like, Oh, my husband loves to ski. I guess I'll learn to ski so I could go with him. It is like, you know, probably without him.
Kristin Nilsen 2:24
Yeah. And this is not a person who skied in high school or with her kids or anything. This is brand new. This is why we say the 50s are a wonderful time for women. It
Carolyn Cochrane 2:34
is never ever, ever too late to try that thing. And she is living it not only on the slopes when she's swishing down, but in all the little lodges and chalets or whatever they call that she has tried every drink and everything she's really living the life
Kristin Nilsen 2:51
she's living slopes life. Yeah, hashtag slopes life. So we're happy to give you the day off. Michelle. Today we're talking about forever. And one of the reasons that we're replaying this episode right now is because we're having a very special book club, a virtual book club to discuss the book forever on May 21. So get your book and start reading. You probably haven't read it since 1975. And now's your chance to discuss it as an actual grownup and not a fourth grader, like I was when I read it,
Carolyn Cochrane 3:22
you guys that this is gonna be I mean, a dream come true. Oh, fun. Is this going to be all of us of a certain age talking about the book then. And now it's timeless? I think that it's not going to seem you know, there might be some dated references. But I don't think it's going to be like, Oh, I can't relate at all. Like, I think it's going to be super timeless.
Kristin Nilsen 3:44
Well, and I think the proof of that is number one, it has been in print constantly since 1975. You'll hear that in our episode. It's never gone out of print. And it has continuously gotten new covers, including as of January 2024. Forever has a brand new cover. And it's beautiful. I just love it. It's gorgeous.
Carolyn Cochrane 4:07
Yes, the new cover one of the things I really loved about it. And what I noticed is it harkens back to the original first cover of duty blimps forever. So just so you guys know, I'm not sure of the exact number. But this book has gone through a myriad of different covers over
Kristin Nilsen 4:28
the past like 1520. I mean, it's a lot. It's a lot and
Carolyn Cochrane 4:32
they all it's really interesting when you look at them because they kind of reflect the times in terms of sometimes like the font, you'll say, oh, that had to be something from the 70s or the way that the images are on the cover. It might be like oh, they're showing the classic one for us was the locket.
Kristin Nilsen 4:52
The locket with Katherine's face in the locket is a white cover, black font and the locket with her look with their picture along the blond hair blowing back and
Carolyn Cochrane 5:01
that's the one that I actually thought maybe that was the very first cover. But the first cover was actually on the hardcover. So I don't remember ever seeing a hardcover I that I had the paperback and that's someone I recall. But the original cover had basically a bed with kind of messed up sheets on it and quilt like a checkered quilt on it. A brass bed kind of harkens up to the 70s. Like you could say, oh, yeah, this is kind of a brand new quilt like a patchwork quilt. Yes, exactly. And the font you can kind of see right there. I bubble letters. Yes, for sure. And forever is in really big letters. And then it says a novel by Judy Blume.
Kristin Nilsen 5:40
I think it's interesting to point out in this new iteration, which is the same for all of her books, the words Judy Blume, are much bigger than the actual title of the book, right? That's what I noticed. They don't even care like, Give me whatever she's got. I don't care. And the other thing that is really interesting on this brand new cover, right under the word, Judy, it says over 4 million copies sold worldwide.
Carolyn Cochrane 6:06
Can you believe that 4 million fat and they keep selling? I mean, obviously, yeah, read on the cover. I mean, that's also so telling of this book. It's been the cover has been redesigned so many times because it keeps selling. It's a popular book, no matter the year. And I noticed that Time Magazine in 2021, named forever one of the top young adult novels of all time. Oh, my God, you're kidding. That was only a couple years ago. So yes, of all time. So I feel like that's quite an honor. said it earlier. Because the story is, it's timeless. And that's why I think it's not something that stuck in the 70s. And if you don't know about the 70s, or you weren't around, then you won't get it. Get it? Yeah, it's in
Kristin Nilsen 6:53
its shockingly, I think you use the word timeless at the top. And we'll talk about this more in the episode too. But the the story between these two high school students experiencing sex for the first time is timeless, in that it still happens the same way. So no matter what the sexual mores are of the time, you have to do it for the first time, at some point in your life. And she is the only one who wrote about it. Right
Carolyn Cochrane 7:22
in such a real way. And what's super interesting, and I don't know if you know this, Kristen, but Netflix is going to be doing a new series, an adaptation of forever, and it's been updated a little in terms of setting. Oh, again, story timeless. Okay, the first time, everybody has to have a first time. In this case, we have two black teenagers. Oh, interesting. In LA. It says it set in 2018, which I find super interesting. Like, I don't know why 2018. Right. Is that the past or when I watch it right? Then? Well,
Kristin Nilsen 7:57
maybe because they wanted to be pre pandemic. Oh, that's what it is. That's
Carolyn Cochrane 8:02
a really good point.
Kristin Nilsen 8:04
And people still talk face to face. Right? They change
Carolyn Cochrane 8:07
the names. So our Catherine character's name is Keisha. Okay. And our Michael character is Justin. Okay, so we've got different names. They're gonna have a little bit of a different backstory. Regina King is on board with this. She's
Speaker 1 8:25
a pilot. She's directing us. Executive
Carolyn Cochrane 8:30
producer, Judy Blume is on board. She's one of the executive producers of this. So yes, so she's going to be doing it and they just cast the two main characters. And if you had asked me a week and a half ago, if I knew either of these actors, I would have told you no, but now I do because we have so are Keisha slash Catherine character is being played by the actress lovey Simone. I wouldn't have known Lavie a week and a half ago. But I just started watching this really good series on Netflix called manhunt. It's a fictionalized version of the hunt for John Wilkes Booth after he assassinated Abraham Lincoln. It is so good you guys. And she has a really big role in it, then that Michael Cooper Jr. is who will be playing Justin slash Michael. I don't know what he's in. But he's been in a lot. So these
Kristin Nilsen 9:24
are kids, right? So it's, it makes sense that we may not have heard of them before because they're young people, right? So we've been around the sideline, but this is so awesome. I'm excited for it too. And it's a series it's not a movie, correct? Okay. Because if you many of you might remember the made for TV movie from 1978, starring Stephanie Zimbalist and Dean Butler, also known as Almanzo. Wilder. Just putting that out there. Was he Almanzo at the time, I think
Carolyn Cochrane 9:51
so was on Monzo maybe we'll take all that out.
Kristin Nilsen 9:55
I don't think Amanzi Monzo didn't come to the prairie till like 1980 or something like that. I'm not sure but nonetheless, I do remember him in the movie and I remember thinking he was really cute, and I have a forever memory of him taking off his glasses, and I don't know, and they were like little aviator glasses 1970s aviator glasses, and I think that was to kiss or something had to take off his glasses to kiss.
Carolyn Cochrane 10:19
And whatever happened to Stephanie Zimbalist, Zimbalist Jr Yes,
Kristin Nilsen 10:23
I was want to call her Stephanie Zimbalist Jr, but that's not
Carolyn Cochrane 10:28
true, but that was so wrong. I know. So I didn't that's so funny that you say that. But yeah, I don't know. She was in that and then she was in a couple other things. She
Kristin Nilsen 10:36
wasn't Was she an FBI? Was that a show? No, that was Efrem Zimbalist they stop listening to us now. I'm just making.
Carolyn Cochrane 10:43
Yeah, we digress, as we often do, we'll do I'll do a little Zimbalist rabbit hole, date everyone at a later date. And we'll update you also when the Netflix series is coming out. I think they just cast it so they probably haven't even started filming or anything yet. So it'll be a little while, but definitely something to look forward to. And I love how they're adapting it. That's again, the storyline. Is that timeless that? Yes, we can do that. And it's still good.
Kristin Nilsen 11:12
Two years later, yeah, they're adapting Judy blooms books for the small screen or the big screen. It's unbelievable what a career this woman has had. It's stunning. It's absolutely stunning. Congratulations, all the congratulations go to Judy Blume. So in preparation for book club, our virtual book club on May 21. Please enjoy this episode. Judy Blume forever. Hello, and welcome back to our conversation about Judy Blume. In our last episode, we learned that Judy Blume cannot be confined to a single episode, we were so naive. So after discussing all the subjects her books dealt with, which include divorce, parents fighting, getting a first bra getting your first period, scoliosis, wet dreams, we decided to save the rest for today. I think we left off with something about touching a penis. And so here's the conclusion of that conversation. Enjoy this Assam after saying
Carolyn Cochrane 12:14
come on get
Kristin Nilsen 12:17
touching a penis.
Michelle Newman 12:21
Well, well, you could say me again, girl. Yes,
Kristin Nilsen 12:25
the girls. Good. Thank you for the differentiation for
Carolyn Cochrane 12:31
my book when there yes, that would be forever forever.
Kristin Nilsen 12:34
No one will ever forget it. No.
Carolyn Cochrane 12:35
I will never forget that description of that. See? I mean, just them in the bathroom and meeting Ralph and all
the way yes, that is described and it's not like all this. All these sentences and words. It's very just kind of cut and dry. But I had the picture perfect in my head. And
Kristin Nilsen 13:03
it was not romanticized in Oh, no, no, not at all. Like it goes in her hand. And I don't remember the exact words. But it was something like Like it felt like a little mouse or it was not a lovely experience. It was just a very real experience. Yeah, there was a description.
Carolyn Cochrane 13:22
There was the disk. I can't believe I'm going there. But the description of the pubic hair and the color like compared to that his hair like on his regular head.
Kristin Nilsen 13:33
She was the front of her hair. Yeah, cuz didn't have red hair. And she was surprised that his pubic hair was red.
Carolyn Cochrane 13:38
Yeah. And then hers was like, darker than her hair on her head. Like she was comparing her to her hair. And anyway, it was just like, were we talking about this? I don't know. We'll have an E and I can edit it out. But
Kristin Nilsen 13:53
I just remember all that. Okay, so naturally daring to discuss all of these things in books for children made them highly controversial. And she had no intention of being controversial at all. And she was just surprised that people reacted that way. Because she was just trying to be honest, that's all she was doing. But five of her books are on the American Library Association's list of the 100 Most Frequently Challenged Books. And on the eve if you take the newest edition of Dini and you turn it over and big letters on the back, it says beloved, best selling banned her books ship challenged all the time. Do you remember them being controversial when you were reading them when you were growing up? Or was that something that went over your head?
Michelle Newman 14:36
Oh, for sure. It went over my head and to this day, I mean, it's It makes me sick that they're banned because it's real. It's she's normalizing real, real experiences. But as a kid I don't remember feeling like they should be banned like feeling shocked like that. I definitely remember being shocked at what was in them. And maybe that's one reason that you kept wanting to read more of them, right? What's gonna be in the next one? What's right but But they were so informative.
Carolyn Cochrane 15:02
You know, and I wonder if I didn't have some friends who weren't allowed or weren't supposed to read read them. That was never me. But that just put this other other to it. It's like, ooh, like, you know, it just seemed a little more risque. And that's why, you know, we passed some around or there were the people who owned them. I remember I owned a few of them. I remember going always going to be Dalton booksellers in the mall, and where that section was, and going to, you know, bloom and seeing which, which copies of what books were there that I didn't have, and then loaning those out to the friends who weren't allowed to node. Yeah,
Kristin Nilsen 15:42
she actually tried. There's so many stories of her books getting challenged and banned. She tried to donate Margaret to her children's school. So her own not a random school. But her children's school these people have Judy Blume is one of the moms in their school. Gosh, and the principal refused it. Because he objected to it. That was inappropriate for children, particularly a part particularly the part about periods.
Michelle Newman 16:12
Well, my gosh Carolyn's
Kristin Nilsen 16:14
face right now. And she's like, What about the fifth and sixth grade girls in your school? Exactly. Who are either having their period are on the verge of getting their period or want to know about what's coming in the next few weeks?
Michelle Newman 16:29
I think I would like kids not at that school.
Carolyn Cochrane 16:32
Can you believe anything?
Kristin Nilsen 16:34
Can you even she had one phone call from a mother who said, Oh, hello, this is Mrs. So and So are you the lady that wrote the books about the bras and the periods and all that and Judy said yes. And the woman called her a communist and hung up even
Michelle Newman 16:54
though, yeah, people are
Kristin Nilsen 16:55
and for what she found is that for most people, the thing that was the most objectionable was masturbation. Masturbation was far worse than actual intercourse. intercourse, but not masturbation. People don't like that. Yeah, no, even though that is a form of safe sex. But no, don't talk about it. She said the 80s were really rough. The 70s were actually a really good time for children's books. It was just past the sexual revolution. People were getting very open and honest about things. I mean, think about it. We had TV shows like love American style and love both that were devoted solely to getting gnocchi, right. Your parents might have been hippies or hippie adjacent. And they probably were more honest than you even wanted them to be right. But the minute Ronald Reagan was elected, she said, the next day the sensors came out. And people started knocking on the door and wanting books removed from their children's libraries. Oh, it was a very rough decade. Really hard.
Carolyn Cochrane 18:00
Yikes.
Kristin Nilsen 18:03
At one point, okay, so here's to you, Rachel Robinson, which came out after we were children hats in the 90s, I do believe. But at the end of the book, one of the characters, his name is Charlie. He's the older brother, and he's saying a toast to the family. And he says, and here's to the whole fucking family. And that's what Charlie would say. She felt very strongly that that is what Charlie would say. And our editors, like, you can't say fucking, but she knew that's what he would say. So they took it to the editorial board. And they're like, if she says that, then we're going to lose all of our book sales or our our book club sales. So instead, you can change it to friggin friggin is okay. And then we'll keep our book club sales. And so she's like, do I make that sacrifice? Or am I true to what Charlie would say? What do I do? So she's sharing the story with her son, Larry. Larry, who is an adult by now. And Larry looks at her and goes, you are Judy blue
Michelle Newman 19:00
yard, Judy fucking blue.
Kristin Nilsen 19:03
gloom. We said if you can't do it, nobody can do it. Yeah. So it stayed. They lost all the book clubs sales, but Charlie got to be honest. And he said, but he needed to say, I love that story. Okay, so of course the most controversial was forever. So do you what are the things that you encountered for the very first time remain forever?
Michelle Newman 19:26
Other than the mouse penis in her hand, I would say like just I was so shocked and almost horrified at the you know, the graphic real sex scenes. And it was very informative, because I could get the kind of info that maybe your mom wouldn't give you but also the kind of info you would not want your mom to give you know, or you would never want to go ask because usually that was just very it was it was you know, all the feelings and all the Just the complications and it also it. Sex wasn't something in that book, it wasn't something that was portrayed as being dirty. It wasn't something you know, it was normal like she does with all her books. It was almost normalized, right? Even though even though there was there was so many complicated feelings and everything she wanted, she want didn't write she wanted to have sex with them.
Kristin Nilsen 20:23
I mean, it was a question for sure. It was a big deal. But right in no way felt. It was very much a personal decision. And she wasn't waiting. She wasn't thinking about God. She wasn't think about disappointing her parents she wasn't thinking about. It was just do I want to have sex with him? Should I end that? It's a big deal?
Michelle Newman 20:40
Yeah. And it was just an I probably read it way too young, because I had an older sister. Not as young as my daughter read it. I'll save that story for later. But But I just think I was so intrigued as you wouldn't be by that book. And almost horrified. But I I don't remember being like disgusted by it. I think I was shocked, you know that, that she was going to do it. But I think more than anything, just it was a book where it was told in such a way that? Yeah, it wasn't the only way I can think of that I keep saying is that it wasn't it didn't seem dirty to me, or it didn't seem wrong or bad. And, and as I have no idea how old I was. But while it was certainly shocking, and I was horrified at it. And it's like I couldn't tear my eyes away from it. It didn't leave me feeling like, like it was wrong. You know, when I think
Kristin Nilsen 21:37
that's probably her point is that she's trying to show that you know what teenagers have sex, they have been having sex the whole time. This is not something because our society is falling apart.
Carolyn Cochrane 21:48
Right. And I'm gonna go so just be honest here. And my first encounter with forever, was not reading from the front of the first page all the way to the last page. And it was literally Yeah, flipping through and seeing where I saw the word Ralph or peanuts, and then I would stop and I would read that section. So there was no plot to my my first encounter with forever, it was truly fine looking for the, you know, risque parts. But then I did, did a little bit later go back. And I did read the whole thing. And I think it would have been my first encounter, this girl was 17, and just the discussion of birth control. And she goes and gets like, she goes to plant parent, I would have no sooner even known probably how to do that, when I have
Kristin Nilsen 22:37
no idea that you can actually see that very adults
Carolyn Cochrane 22:39
are mature in, in her approach to, to, but the whole birth control and taking ownership of that I just thought was mean, that was my first encounter with that, that you could kind of call the shots, I guess as the female Yeah, in the story. Because in my mind, the guy was going to do everything. If there was birth control, it was going to be a condom, she
Michelle Newman 23:03
approached it in such a responsible way. And I feel like, you know, especially the way it all ends is what, when I did have to have the talk about the book with my daughter who was way too young, when she got her hands on it. That's the message, the message that I gave her was that she made this choice, she felt good about the choice when she made it, but she didn't after, you know, because because it didn't end the way she thought it was going to end. And so she had a lot of regret. And so, you know, then that could just kind of be, you know, a jumping off point, you know, for my daughter, who was only 10. Maybe when she, when she discovered the book and read it and I after I knew after the fact and I was like, alright, well, it's not wrong, that you read it, you know, but we need to have some disk because I bet you have a lot of questions. But you know, of course, the way you is, is you know, it's a very emotional thing. Look how, you know, look how emotional it was for her. And and I think at the end she was she wouldn't have done it. At least that's the way that I Oh, well. No, that was a takeaway. I
Kristin Nilsen 24:07
always not a romance novel, right? This is something far more than a romance novel, because at the end it just like all teenage relationships, except for a handful of them. You don't walk off into the sunset and get married and live happily ever after. That's not how it goes. And so the discussions that I've had with my own kid about what it means to have sex when you're a teenager is that it is an emotional decision and you have to be prepared for it. What if it doesn't go well? And what does it mean for your self worth and what does it mean for who you are and how you feel about the other? I'm rambling now you know what I'm talking about? My I had all the same revelations as you guys about forever with the addition of the scrotum. I'm making a very particular and emotional right now.
Michelle Newman 24:57
She's like throwing her hand down. Got her hand.
Carolyn Cochrane 25:01
She's just been given, like a little bag of gold. Christian,
Michelle Newman 25:05
Christian, we know what the word means. Oh, I
Kristin Nilsen 25:08
don't even say, Oh no, we're done. This is a podcast. That's right. Don't be too descriptive about the scrotum. The idea that that came into play was just sort of a revelation for me. And the fact that remember when she put the cologne on its Yeah. So I did learn a cologne on the scrotum. That was very instructive. When I read forever, also really young. I was probably fourth grade. Okay. Oh, yes, absolutely. Yes. Got passed around, had lots of underlining in it, right. But I did read it cover to cover. And I hid it under my mattress, because I think I got it from Alison, how Hello, Alison. I'm totally outing Alison, how can I was giving me forever. And my mom found it under my mattress. And the next morning, I'm sitting at the kitchen table eating breakfast and she slams forever down the table. And she said, Are you reading this trash? Oh, and I said, I don't know what made me be honest. Because normally, my instinct would be to lie. And I just said, Yes, I am. And she said, Oh kg. And it was lifted there. I
Michelle Newman 26:21
never had a discussion about a no,
Kristin Nilsen 26:23
no. I mean, I'm sure if my mom was on the podcast right now she's saying no, we had a lovely discussion. And I said, if you ever have any questions, you want to scroll up one. That is not how I recall it. I could have been one of those moments where I'm like, please stop talking, please. Yeah,
Michelle Newman 26:39
yeah. Oh, I'm quite certain. My daughter would say the same thing. Like, really? Why did I read this book? Because I was like, I'm sure you have a lot of questions, and I'm here to answer them. She was probably just like, nope, nope. And I was like, well, here I have some for you. So I'm just gonna give you my answers. Anyway, how do you
Kristin Nilsen 26:55
feel about scrotum honey? Okay, so the great irony, of course, is that getting your book banned is great for sales. And it just makes I mean, that's why they put it on the back of Dini, because it makes kids really want to see what all the fuss is about. So to all you moms out there who are thinking on marching on your school library to get a book taken out, you're only making the kids read it more. So that certainly adds to the appeal of her books. But it's more than that. The popularity of these books, the enduring popularity of them begs the question. Well, okay, I should say also that I haven't been in a library for a few years. So I called up my friend Gretchen, who is the library coordinator at our local middle school. And I just wanted to verify Are we still reading Judy Blume? I mean, clearly, they're still in print. They don't print books, if nobody's buying them. But I just wanted to see if it was the same sort of thing that was going on when we were kids. And she said, Absolutely, mostly Margaret and fudge, Margaret and fudge are never in. They're always checked out. She said, the diehards are still reading Sheila and blubber and all of the rest. And interestingly enough, there's always a noticeable spike after Banned Books Week, which is end of September every year, the American Library Association does a campaign about banned books. And why it is that we shouldn't ban banned books, the library is a place that is free and open. You have the the ability as a parent to determine what your children do and do not read but you don't have the ability to determine what my children do and do not read. Can I say that? Right? That sounds awkward. So she says that, yes, Judy Bloom is still a thing. 50 years later. So what is it specifically that makes these books so universally appealing to kids over such a long period of time? Which is let's just say this? That is the definition of a classic, right? Not? We have lots of classics that nobody reads anymore? Nobody gives a shit about Tom Sawyer, do you want to read?
Michelle Newman 28:55
It is because all the things that it's because kids are still 50 years later, going through the exact same things, oh, my God, they're still going through puberty and divorce. And they're still having to struggle with mental health. And you know, they're still there's friendship issues and body image issues and bullying, kids are still going through the same things that they were going through in the early 70s that she wrote, she wrote about, and so it's still I know, we keep using this word, but it's, it's so true. She just normalizes it, so the reader doesn't feel alone. And so the characters are so relatable, and the situations are so relatable. And
Kristin Nilsen 29:32
it really kind of points out that we think things change, but they don't just the things that we want the way we want children to be the way we want families to be. That's what changes but the way things really are really doesn't. One of the things that surprised the hell out of me that she said one reason it was so important for her to put masturbation in her books is because she was so worried that this special place that she had that gave her good feelings she if she had had a book that told her that that was normal, it would have been a huge relief to her. And she said all of her friends had a special place that gave them a good feeling. And this isn't the 1940s and 50s. It's not any different. Yeah, I
Carolyn Cochrane 30:13
think reading her books was the first time as a reader that I had that me to feeling like when I could identify with a character on such a level that, yes, I get it. And that's, for me personally, one of the reasons I love to read is just knowing that something I thought that made me a little different. Obviously, if it's in a book, and a lot of people are reading it, then there must be a lot of other people that feel this way. And that like you're not
Michelle Newman 30:41
alone. Yeah, exactly. Or in that her books were the first
Carolyn Cochrane 30:45
time I experienced that feeling, which is a really good feeling to have. Okay,
Kristin Nilsen 30:49
and so I do have to say that the word masturbation, I did not put the word masturbation together with Dini special place when I read it. And still to this day, I don't think that there's a contemporary book that says as much about masturbation as Dini from 1972, or whatever it was, that is still the book that addresses it to the biggest degree. It makes no sense to me. But anyway, when you were at about Dini special place that gave her a good feeling, did you know what she was talking about? Or did you find a place was someplace else?
Michelle Newman 31:23
Yeah, I don't remember. I don't. I don't remember if I did or not.
Kristin Nilsen 31:27
I thought it was right here. I thought for a good feeling.
Michelle Newman 31:39
It's not a bad feeling. Oh, my gosh. Oh, God.
Carolyn Cochrane 31:48
I don't know.
Michelle Newman 31:49
I don't know. I can't remember if I did or not.
Carolyn Cochrane 31:53
Yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember if I black did Eric, like blocked it out? Because I didn't want to think about that about myself. So it's like,
Kristin Nilsen 32:02
right, because you'd be so dirty. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so one thing I've been trying to analyze this for years, because people spend so much time talking about good literature, bad literature, good writing, bad writing. And as three writers, we're constantly looking at what we can do to improve our writing, right. But one thing that I think is that has made her books so appealing is the simplicity of the writing. She doesn't spend a lot of time on descriptive paragraphs. She, her sentences are not very complex. There are very few compound sentences. And even the grammar in them, I found I was going through some notes. And I've found something a little note in a margin that said grammatical chillaxing. She just she just said what children say. She said, me and my friend, me and Carolyn, me and Michelle. Whereas my mom was constantly harping on me, you put your friend first, you always put your friend first. And so when I write Of course, I always put Carolyn and I, Michelle and I, well, she's like, No, I'm not doing that. Because that's not how they talk. I think that's very appealing. And so when children are reading it, the way that it sounds to them, it is ingested in a very natural form. And it finally I can't believe it took me this long, but it was in reading then again, maybe I won't just yesterday where it finally dawned on me. This reads like a diary. Hmm. Right. It's not complex. It is how a child would talk in their own words, they don't go on and on. It's even in past tense to a certain degree. And it's feels so utterly personal. So it's awesome when something that is personal to you is also personal to someone else. All of these books that we're talking about made an impact on us personally, right, but they were a part of the broader culture too. And luckily, I have some like minded friends who will do crazy crazy things with me, like looking for Sally J. Friedman, all over the Miami with my friend Colleen. And if you listen to our previous episode, about Christmas, Colleen is the little bit she threw her Christmas practice on the sphere. So in the mid 90s, when we were well into adulthood, Colleen and I drove around the city of Miami, and we were basically using Sally J. Friedman as our guidebook. So I had a discussion with Colleen about it this week. And we were able to sort of piece together our memories of that event adventure that we took together so you can take a listen to it right here.
Speaker 2 34:37
I feel like we stopped at an elementary school. And we're convinced that that was the one she went to
Kristin Nilsen 34:45
because we knew that Judy Blume there wasn't just Sally we knew that Judy Blume was Sally J exacto because we knew that Judy Blume had spent a year in Miami without her father. We knew that She had to have chosen certain places in the book. So what I was wondering when I was thinking about this, like, was there an actual, like prescribed tour in places but no, we made this up, didn't we?
Speaker 2 35:09
We absolutely. Absolutely did. Yes. We were like that, right there with her brother who had kidney disease that could be healed by the sun. That's why they went
Kristin Nilsen 35:23
to Miami and had to live data in New Jersey. Exactly. So it must have had a lot to do with what we envisioned in our brains. When we were reading the book and then driving around Miami looking for an image that matched the image in our brains. Exactly. Oh, we are clever. Very good. We went to an elementary school. And we took pictures there. And then we found an apartment building and we took pictures there. I mean, we took pictures of things that we were making up this is
Speaker 2 35:54
no I'm not seriously I can picture the yellow apartment building that we stood in front of.
Kristin Nilsen 35:59
Oh my god. Yeah, like all these pastel colored Art Deco, south beach. Miami themed things.
Speaker 2 36:07
I also remember potentially nearly getting hit by a car because we were distracted. Maybe crossing a road when we shouldn't have been like, Oh, look at that.
Kristin Nilsen 36:16
Like the cat who was the cat that got hit by a car was like Bongo or something. Bingo, Bongo. Somebody's cat. It was the neighbor's the beautiful neighbor's cat got Omar. Omar, the cat's name was Omar and he got hit by a car and it was very sad. Feel like we just walked around and like pretended we were selling charity on sidewalks. These were women in their 20s. Like we must have been in our late 20s When we were doing this. We have amazing imaginations. I'm kind of impressed with us. We do and we're
Speaker 2 36:50
both short and we look young. So maybe we thought we could talk to Sally. Okay, I think we put hibiscus in our hair to pretend that we were Esther Williams.
Kristin Nilsen 37:02
Yes, we did. There. I
Speaker 2 37:04
know there are high discus all over Miami. I think they weren't even in my parents yard.
Kristin Nilsen 37:10
But yes, we totally did. And did we find a pool where Esther Williams would have done her little swimming routine.
Speaker 2 37:17
We made it up but yes, in our minds. Esther Williams was at that pool.
Kristin Nilsen 37:22
Or like this is the pool where they filmed the scene.
Carolyn Cochrane 37:30
Kristen didn't get a chance to meet Judy Blume recently. I think I remember you sharing something about that. So
Kristin Nilsen 37:34
peak experience. For those of you who don't know,
Michelle Newman 37:39
I don't know this story. Oh my god. Okay. I'm like sitting on the edge of my chair.
Kristin Nilsen 37:43
Oh, hello, Michelle. So Judy Blume owns a bookstore in Key West Florida, right. auxin books, and I was there a couple of years ago. And of course I steer my family to Key West. Like I'm not telling them why. I like to go see Judy Blume every day I go to the bookstore in hopes of seeing Judy Blume everyday she's not there. Finally on the last day, I know it's my last opportunity. I'm gonna go straight from the beach, to books and books. And I'm I'm Sandy and I'm sweaty and I'm sunburned, and I smell bad. And I'm all greasy and I walk in and oh my god, there's Judy Blume. And you guys I had to bite my cheek so that I wouldn't cry. And it's me and a bunch of little girl getting there like like clapping your hands like it's turning blue. It's blue. And so I patiently wait my turn because everyone in the store wants to talk to Judy Blume. Right. And so I go up to her and I ask, I'm super nervous. I had a speech that I've planned and everything and I'm super nervous. And and I asked if I can take a selfie? And she says no. And she's like, Oh, but then she says, but we can't have we can't have someone take our picture. So what she means is you can't hold your hand up with your phone, right a picture of us. So somebody took our picture and I just look ridiculous because I'm so freaking happy. And can we please put it on Instagram? Oh, yes, definitely. Okay, I'm still freaking happy and I'm sweaty and Sandy and sunburn. But this was coinciding to a time when I had written this book that we've talked about before. It's a book for children about 7/7 grade girl with a crush on a singer on a Shaun Cassidy style singer right. And so I was able to go in there you guys I vented to Judy Blume and I told her all the things that editors were telling me and they were telling me things like you can't write about crushes in middle grade books. You have to do it in young adult. You can't talk about crushes for 11 year old girls. You can't say the F word which I do only one time, one time when she really needed it, there was a really important part of the book. And Judy Blume was incensed for me. She was incensed. And she said, that is just ridiculous. I had my first crush when I was in first grade, and his name was Jim. And then she called me by the hand, and she pulled over to the shelf, and she starts pulling down her books and opening them to pages and going, look at this is where she had her crush on him, and she has a crush on him here. That is all like ridiculous. Then she takes a post it note and she pulls me behind the register. And she's like, Okay, tell me your name. She writes My name on a post it. And then she says, Tell me the name of your book. And she writes the name of my book on a post it note.
Michelle Newman 40:42
I know, how do I know this story? I
Kristin Nilsen 40:45
know. I know, because I hold it right here in my heart. And I was just gonna tell you that we hugged and I left but you guys, I don't know if that's true. I felt like I got a hug from her. I don't know if I actually did. But the way she treated me felt like a warm hug. I bet I talked to her for 30 minutes. Oh, yeah. She actually works at this bookstore. She's
Michelle Newman 41:10
What do you think she did with a post it note? I don't know.
Kristin Nilsen 41:13
Well, I saw her put it on behind the register. She put it on the little wall behind the register.
Carolyn Cochrane 41:20
Yes, she wants to make sure when that book comes in, that would be prominently displayed on one of the front tables.
Michelle Newman 41:28
I was thinking that maybe she would have been like, I'm going to call my agent. Oh, God wished? Yeah, that would have been great. How did you even bring it up?
Kristin Nilsen 41:35
I don't know. I don't know. i But I went in there with the idea that I'm not trying to get help. I'm needing to tell her that I have this problem. And editors are telling me that I'm doing it wrong. And they're saying that I'm doing something wrong in an arena that I know is true. I know that 11 year old girls have crushes on people like Shaun Cassidy now, right?
Michelle Newman 41:59
Did you ever get to gush to her? Like how much you mean to me and how much your books Oh, me are driven. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I bought
Kristin Nilsen 42:04
about five books. And I had her sign them all. I told her all about Sally J. I told her everything. Yes, I'm actually you guys. It was just like a David Cassidy story that's like this too. But I had to be mindful that there were other people who want it. And I hated myself. I'm like, Kristen, you have to give someone else a turn because she was really, she was really focused on me. And I had to let somebody else get their picture taken with you. Boom.
Michelle Newman 42:33
I'm in complete shock with this story. Also, because for the past two months, we've brought up talking about Judy Blume books so many times, and never once were you like, oh, by the way, matter, she signed some books for me. She's my friend.
Kristin Nilsen 42:46
We're friends now. She's my bridesmaid.
Michelle Newman 42:48
Wow, that's fantastic. You know, I know, that's really just a tremendous story.
Kristin Nilsen 42:53
I know, isn't it great. And she has to feel like, although this isn't true, this is in my mind, I feel like we have this special relationship. And I continue to order books from books and books. If you ask for an alternative online book, buying experience, books and books and Key West, Florida is fantastic. They have a really great, easy, intuitive ordering platform. They have a great newsletter with great book recommendations. There's a letter from Judy that comes out and she gives her book recommendations. So I recently ordered the newest paperback of Margaret from books and books naturally. And you guys, they called me. I just want everybody to buy the books. They're the people at books and books called me and said, Oh, we noticed that you ordered Are you there? God, it's me, Margaret. Would you like Judy to sign it? No, of course. I said yes. How nice of them to call me. But so they were like, okay, so she's quarantining with her daughter in Massachusetts. So we're gonna send it to Judy and Massachusetts. And she'll sign it, and then she'll send it back to the store, and then we'll send it to you. Oh,
Michelle Newman 43:57
my gosh. Jesus, Christian, you should have led with the story. This is a good little treat for the listeners who have stuck with us this long, you
Kristin Nilsen 44:09
know, this is well, and that's definitely true, because it's very difficult to keep this conversation to a reasonable amount of time. Because it's like when you were 12. And you're at the Slumber Party. And what are you talking about? You're talking about? When is everybody going to get their period? Who's got their period? And who doesn't? And we're still having the same conversation today, you guys, except we're doing it in reverse. And did you get your period we're saying, Are you still having your period? Where's the time? No. So it's not possible to bring a conversation like this to a natural end, because girls and women need each other. We continue to need each other especially in times like this. And we're still trying to make sure that we're normal. We're still excited for the changes that are coming right we are on the verge of it the three of us I'm looking at It looks like Carol and right. Oh, I just have to end it here. And I will do so by sharing with you some of the rejections that Judy Blume received from editors when she first started submitting her books, just to show you that people don't know Jack.
Unknown Speaker 45:18
Are you ready? We're ready.
Kristin Nilsen 45:21
Yeah. Dear Judy. Unfortunately, I'm not sure this is a children's story. Parents would dig the humor, but not children.
Michelle Newman 45:32
Do we not book that's for Tales of
Kristin Nilsen 45:34
a fourth grade? Nothing.
Dear Judy, I'm sure you're a really nice girl. But get out your hanky and prepare to cry. Because you just can't right?
Michelle Newman 45:51
That's a little harsh. I
Kristin Nilsen 45:52
know. Yes. Dear Judy, you're a nice girl. But you'll never be a writer.
Carolyn Cochrane 46:02
I'm calling her girl. Oh,
Kristin Nilsen 46:03
yeah. Both two of them called her nice kids. Of course, those are men. Right? Of course. Of course. Oh, my goodness. Thank you, Judy Blume for not quitting. And thank you all for listening. Yes, thank
Carolyn Cochrane 46:16
you all so much. We do have one favor to ask you though. If you could leave us a review and a rating and maybe even subscribe to our podcast, we would be so grateful. When you're just starting out. You need all the love and support you can get. And we are so appreciative of yours.
Michelle Newman 46:32
And we hope that you're following along on social media. We're having so much fun sharing the stall Jik memories with all of you just search pop culture Preservation Society, and check out our website at pop preservationists.com To learn more about us and to get access to all of our past episodes. And there's a whole bunch of other fun stuff on there too.
Carolyn Cochrane 46:52
Yeah, past episodes and we want you to come join us next week for our future episode, which will be sad songs from the 70s. Hope to see you then.
Kristin Nilsen 47:02
In the meantime, let's raise our glasses for a toast courtesy of Janet Chrissy and Jack tripper to good times,
Michelle Newman 47:11
to Happy Days to Little
Carolyn Cochrane 47:13
House on the Prairie. She's here. Thanks, guys. See you next week.
Kristin Nilsen 47:20
Information opinions and comments expressed on the pop culture Preservation Society podcast belongs solely to me the crush ologists and Carolyn and hello Newman, and are in no way representative of our employers or affiliates. And though we truly believe we are always right, I guess there's always a first time that BCPS is written produced and recorded at modern well a woman centered co working space in Minneapolis, Minnesota, home of the fictional w j m studios and our beloved Mary Richards, man man and keep on truckin and may the Force be with you Again