James at 15: The 1970s Dawson’s Creek
Michelle Newman 0:00
I did have to think realistically. I think that they would have put her in like track pants, because realistically, oh yes, 15 year old boys would have been walking around with boners. There might have been boners for sure everywhere, boners, boners, boners.
Unknown Speaker 0:14
Hello, there's a song that we're singing.
Unknown Speaker 0:18
Come on, get happy.
Kristin Nilsen 0:22
I me. Welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society, the podcast for people born in the big wheel generation who ran out of brownie mix for their Easy Bake oven and never used it again.
Michelle Newman 0:40
We believe our Gen X childhoods gave us unforgettable songs, stories, characters and images, and if we don't talk about them, they'll disappear, like Marshall will and Holly on a routine expedition,
Carolyn Cochrane 0:52
and today, we're saving one of the most memorable single season shows in Gen X history, the Uber relatable and sometimes controversial James at 15, I mean 16. I'm Carolyn,
Michelle Newman 1:08
I'm Kristen, and I'm Michelle, and we are your pop culture preservationists.
Speaker 1 1:13
He ain't got no walking stick. He don't need no ball and chain. He ain't got no hand to kick. That don't mean nothing to James
Michelle Newman 1:26
singing and a do, see, do win an ad man left, Swing
Kristin Nilsen 1:29
your partner round and round. Oh, goodness
Michelle Newman 1:35
gracious, no. It's like a hoedown.
Kristin Nilsen 1:38
It is a total hoedown song, okay? And I have to tell poor Carolyn's face right now, because she loves this song and she's sad. But I know we I mentioned in our preview episode, when we were talking about the the shows that we were going to be talking about, I said one thing that I met remembered so hard, was the was the theme song, and I but I couldn't come up with it. I couldn't remember it, but I knew that when I heard it, I would cry, and then when I dipped into jeans at 15 for the first time this weekend, that was the song, I was like, Damn not crying. And
Carolyn Cochrane 2:10
I was actually it was,
Kristin Nilsen 2:14
first of all, I didn't remember it. That wasn't the song that I remembered. And I was also irritated because I thought, this does not match our memory. It doesn't match my memory at all. But poor Carolyn loves it,
Michelle Newman 2:28
you guys and the whole like he ain't got no bowl when I listen to that theme song is I need to pop an aluminum can of beer, beer across it, like James does, and throw it out. And here's the thing, Kristen, I'm so glad to hear you say that, because when you said that last week, I was like, okay, because as you're going to hear I didn't watch the show, and when I first heard that theme song, I was seriously questioning your musical taste. I was like, What now, Carolyn is okay. We don't all have to agree. Carolyn. Carolyn's time to defend.
Carolyn Cochrane 3:06
Well, I'm not going to defend. It's just perfect. And it's perfect for that little opening montage. It is as he's just like, you know, kind of just gallivanting through life. And here's something that's sad, though, because when, after Kristen had shared with us that this she loved the theme song, and she was going to get teary. And so when I hear it, I just have this big smile on my face. And I think Kristen's hearing it right now, probably too, and she's all excited, like I am. Oh, that makes me so sad. And listen, I mean, I know it's kind of it's a little cheesy, which is, we'll talk about a little bit in this episode. The show is a little cheesy. That's all part of the gig. But didn't it remind you of like the fall guy? Did you not like the fall guy theme
Michelle Newman 3:48
song? Tina, so not the fall guy. Like, I just think that after like episode nine or 10, the people were like, We got to get
Kristin Nilsen 3:55
rid of this. Do we have another song yet?
Michelle Newman 3:59
No balling chain.
Carolyn Cochrane 4:00
It's the very first line, he ain't gotten a walking stick.
Kristin Nilsen 4:06
What teenager uses a walking stick?
Carolyn Cochrane 4:11
Guys, you're too literal. That's usually me. We're not like saying everything in the song is what he's doing. It's just more of like the you know, he's just going through life like he didn't need anything. He didn't have a care in the world. He didn't need a walking stick. A walking stick. He doesn't need
Michelle Newman 4:23
it. He's got nothing weighing him down like a heavy stick. Or there you go. That's it. Yes, that's it. Alrighty, that theme didn't match the show. I was yes, it did not match. It wasn't the right tone for the show. Now I will say when he becomes 16. So
Kristin Nilsen 4:39
it's episode 12, right? Episode 12,
Michelle Newman 4:42
and all of a sudden, I'm like, my head shot up, and I was like, what? What's happening? It's a different theme song. It's a different theme song. I was so pleased with their change, and
Kristin Nilsen 4:51
that was the one that I did remember. And this is memorable because it does match the tone precisely, and it's a song that is. Written and performed by England Dan and John Ford Coley,
Michelle Newman 5:04
no wonder we love it. Hard hands. Hard hands for those mustache old men, James, you got it all in your
Unknown Speaker 5:14
hands, in the
Unknown Speaker 5:20
I enjoy. All right.
Carolyn Cochrane 5:26
Listeners today, we're actually traveling back in time to 1977 to talk about a show that was actually ahead of a time that was James at 15 slash 16, starring Lance Kerwin. So the pilot episode for James at 15 was a two hour long made for TV movie that aired on NBC on September 5, 1977 you guys, it was the highest rated program on television for that week. Go figure, good for them. So yeah. So that really helped give the green light for it to become a regular series on NBC. Now, as we've stated, it was a single season show. It aired from October 12, 1977 to June 29 1978 with 20 episodes. That's it, yes, but it was 20 episodes. That's a lot of episodes, people, yeah, that's three
Michelle Newman 6:17
seasons of a streaming show right now, three class,
Kristin Nilsen 6:21
six years of shrinking.
Michelle Newman 6:25
That's That's true. When you had 20 show seasons, 22 show seasons, you became part of this family, and you got to build relationships with these people. Yeah, now you might not do that till season two, which is two, three years. That's right, you know to get
Kristin Nilsen 6:39
to season 20. Knew James. You knew James. You knew all of his friends. You
Michelle Newman 6:43
know his family. You knew his relationship with his parents really well. Yeah, right.
Kristin Nilsen 6:47
I want to draw a comparison to another single season, truth telling, teen angst show, and that is Freaks and Geeks. How
it's the same thing where it is so pointed at the teen audience, it is so from the perspective of the teens and and it only lasts for a year, despite the fact that the reviews are outstanding and people adore it, but it must be that the people who adore it is just not a big enough audience, and yet people feel so strongly about it, and people today. I mean, we're talking about Freaks and Geeks today, and that show was on 26 years ago for one season, and James at 15 holds the same place in people's hearts. For many people, there are some Gen Xers. If you were only three or four years old at the time, you may not know this show. But if you were 910, 1112, 13, you're like James at 15 for one season. You looked forward to that show every single week.
Carolyn Cochrane 7:56
Well, to set this up a little bit for our listeners, the show was created from the mind of Dan Wakefield. Now, Dan Wakefield was a journalist and novelist up until this point. Had never written for TV. Dan wrote a book that came out in 1970 called going all the way. Then it told the story of two young Korean War veterans trying to re acclimate to domestic life in 1950s Indianapolis. So producer Joseph Harvey, he recognized the potential in Wakefield's concept in his book, going all the way, and he brought the idea to NBC, because the network was seeking to capture this elusive audience of teenagers. Okay, because we had, like, the happy days and all that going on, and we had bionic people.
Michelle Newman 8:36
Bionic people
Carolyn Cochrane 8:40
wanted to kind of capture the teenage audience with real life issues that were honest and that, most of all, that teenagers could relate to. So James at 15 was born. The show's creators carefully selected a young and very talented cast. Need I say more we've got our star, Lance Carolyn. I know it's so loved him, and let's just take a second say, What a perfect casting that was. Okay. It really, truly looked like the boy who'd have a locker next to you, or would sit behind you in algebra, and then he dropped your pencil. He'd actually, like, pick it up and hand it to
Kristin Nilsen 9:12
you. He was so normal. He was so normal looking, and yet, at the same time, you know, he's the kind of kid that you would develop a crush on like you didn't have a crush on him the first time you saw him, he wasn't that kid. It was after he picked up your hands Exactly,
Carolyn Cochrane 9:25
exactly. Oh, you're kind of cute 100% and I think that's that's why I loved him so much. So in the two hour pilot, we meet James, a 15 year old sophomore in high school living in Portland, Oregon, and we meet his family, okay? And here's where some of the casting is kind of fun. He has a younger sister played wonderfully, I think, by Kim Richards. Okay, we all might remember Kim from the Witch Mountain movies. She was a nanny and the professor, and more recently, even my children know Kim Richards because she starred in The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.
Kristin Nilsen 9:59
Yes, which just never lined up with escape from which mountain. Oh, for me now, it just doesn't work.
Michelle Newman 10:05
Did you guys know I loved Kim Richards as a little me too, from which mountain and just from any she was in a lot
Carolyn Cochrane 10:10
little house,
Kristin Nilsen 10:12
yeah. And they were a great brother and sister. They were very real. Perry real,
Carolyn Cochrane 10:17
yes. He has an older sister who is away at college. His dad is an English professor. His mom is a stay at home mom, and in the movie, we see James living this average suburban life in Portland, Oregon. He's not a jock, he's not a nerd, he's he's just regular, like Kristen said before, he's just kind of normal. He's on the swim team. He loves photography, and he has a part time job loading groceries. And
Michelle Newman 10:39
he loves Lacey. Yes, he is a normal 15 year old boy because he is completely centered on his crush, right?
Carolyn Cochrane 10:48
So in this episode, he experiences, like many do at this age, his first love, which just so happens to be someone we also all loved in 1977 that would be Mary ingles. Oh, I mean, Melissa Sue Anderson and her role as Lacey is the farthest cry you can get from her role and her life in Walnut Grove. Am I right? Ladies? And
Kristin Nilsen 11:13
that has to be one reason that it did so well on that night, right? They chose really carefully, like, who are the who are the the tweens and teens gonna show up for because they may or may not have known the the name Lance Kerwin. They know Melissa Sue Anderson, and you know her face was in the trailer, and it was probably in the in the trailer, kissing. Oh yeah,
Michelle Newman 11:34
every time she opened her mouth, it's Mary.
Speaker 2 11:37
What time we have, we'll do what we want, not what they want. Yeah, well, think of it like a war, like people in the midst of a war. You know, there's only so many weeks till Paris fall, but till it does, we're gonna live. She
Michelle Newman 11:53
looks like Mary. The hair is almost the same, especially when she wore it down when she was, you know, on Little House on the Prairie. And then to just see Mary making out with like, you know, on the couch when she's supposed to be babysitting her brother. And I was like, Oh, I couldn't, I couldn't go. I couldn't switch. It was Mary
Kristin Nilsen 12:13
and designer jeans. That's exactly right.
Carolyn Cochrane 12:15
The TV movie is gonna really set us up for the way the series will unfold, because one night at dinner, James' parents inform him and his sister that his father has accepted a new job in Boston. Okay, he lives in suburban Portland, and they're going to be moving to Boston, and neither James nor his sister are happy about the news, and oh, boy, did I feel that I again, we've all shared that how moving impacted the three of us in different ways, I would be making a move in my mind, very similar to that from Texas to New Jersey just a few months later. So all the goodbyes, all of those moments in the show, really got me in the gut. But what happens after he finds out they're moving the race is on with Mary Ingle, because, I mean Lacy, because they're in love and they want to prove that to each other
Michelle Newman 13:06
have sex. I as
Kristin Nilsen 13:08
a kid, I didn't think that they wanted to have sex, and even when I was watching it right now, I was like, Are they just talking about kissing? And it wasn't until they were in the sleeping bag outside and they start taking their clothes off. I'm like, oh, no, we're talking about more than kissing, all right. All right. I think
Carolyn Cochrane 13:24
it was they felt like that was something that they were supposed to do. He thought everybody else was doing it. We had a scene a little bit earlier in the movie where another super cute guy, Vince Van Patten, was kind of talking about how you make the moves and in
Kristin Nilsen 13:38
football analogies, in all football analogies. Yeah, does Vince Van Patten, is that sweat band around his head? Is that permanent?
Carolyn Cochrane 13:45
I do believe it's perfect. I
Michelle Newman 13:47
believe it maybe, yes, it is. You can't take it.
Carolyn Cochrane 13:49
I don't know,
Kristin Nilsen 13:50
right? Yeah, because it's in every show, head head on, yeah, because he's not a tennis player or anything in the show, he's a football player, but he's still wearing the sweat band all the time.
Carolyn Cochrane 14:00
I know it's like this thing. I guess people don't really wear sweat bands that much anymore. It's not a thing anymore.
Kristin Nilsen 14:06
Bjorn Borg. Bjorn Borg in the sweat band. So when, when James at 15 actually begins the true series? He's a teenager newly moved to Boston. Yes, it became very clear to me why I loved this show so much because James at 15 has the exact same kind of 1970s ethos that I grew up with, which is mildly unconventional in a traditional family setting, which it's it's like, not stinky granola people, but where you're like the dads wore cords And the mom made sun tea in the backyard, right? Your parents, they weren't hippies. Your parents weren't hippies by any means. They might have been too old to be hippies. My parents were too old to be hippies. They were not cool, but they were looser and more socially conscious than parents of previous generations. I, like James, lived in a leafy city neighbor. Hood, full of academics, everyone in this show, even his parents, who are supposed to be the squares, who just don't understand, right? Like that. That's a theme in adolescence. Your parents just don't understand. But even his parents speak about equity and speaking up for your rights and having a voice all the time, whether it be it's like it's every episode, whether it be in civic society or just in your own adolescent life, it was very comforting and familiar for me. I didn't know that there were neighborhoods where you weren't allowed to call adults by their first names. I didn't know this. I didn't know there were places where people said sir and ma'am and you did as you were told. I didn't know that I laughed so hard when James calls his dad sir and and his dad says, Please knock off all that sir stuff. I'm a person, and that is so my neighborhood. Sir and ma'am were not signifiers of respect where I came from. They were signifiers of being old and out of date, and it reminded me of how my dad helped me write a petition for my fourth grade class when we weren't going on any field trips, and Miss Barry's class had already gone on two field trips, and that's not fair. And instead of my dad explaining to me that children should be seen and not heard, and my teacher is doing the best she can, my dad said, well, the democratic thing to do would be to, you know, get signatures from all of the students in the classroom. This is this just exactly how it went in James at 15. They say democratic and democracy constantly in this show, which is code for kids or people too, right? For example, when, when James is eavesdropping on his parents, when they're fighting about when to tell the kids about their moving to Boston, and his mom says we're always yacking at them about democracy, and then we don't even include them in this decision that is so 70s, right? And when James finds out that he's moving, the reaction from everybody James, his sister, his girlfriend, is resistance. It's not Oh no, this is sad, and we have to move. They talk about starting a movement. They want to start a kids rights movement, or they're going to go on strike. They want to take political action against their parents. And because these kids want to say in how their lives go, this is the hallmark of coming of age. You can't tell me what to do this is what resonated with us as kids, right? Which I think is what the I think is what the producer and the writer wanted to say, you can't tell me what to do. I'm a person too. Those are the feelings that they wanted to identify with. It's diametrically opposed to the era of doing what your parents say, because they say so, and you don't need to know why, right? That's Leave It to Beaver, right? This isn't happy
Carolyn Cochrane 17:44
days too. I mean, it's that, yes, 50s, right? Kind of thing we thought. I also wonder
Kristin Nilsen 17:48
a little bit about it being post Bicentennial, right? Weren't we talking an awful lot about democracy in 1976 and taxation without representation, and that's not fair, and everybody has a voice, and it was Jimmy Carter and and the little people House Rock, Schoolhouse Rock. And I think that's reflected in James at 15. Yeah, I would agree. And I think all this unconventional, traditional family ethos is also seen in the friends that James had. This is what these are the people who are going to round out our characters. We have James and we have his friend sly and we have his friend Marlene. Each and every one of them is so singular. They're so different from each other, and they make such a good triad, and they're also easy for us to love. So you want every single one of these kids to succeed and be who they are. Marlene wants to be an anthropologist. She's always going to the library at Harvard. I mean, it's so and she always has, like, a flak jacket on, and
Carolyn Cochrane 18:47
she is a good friend. She's like, that's another message we get in James at 15, is you can have a friend who's a guy who and the guy is, you're his friend. He's your friend. And that's what that's just what it is. It's not anything romantic. It's not that you see each other in these sexual ways. It's that it's okay to have friends of the opposite sex and be close to them. Yeah,
Michelle Newman 19:10
someone you can call who will give you the number to the free clinic when you think you have Ed with no questions asked,
Kristin Nilsen 19:16
right? That's right. And so these characters are coming of age also. They're helping each other come of age. They're all coming of age. Coming of Age is the reason that this show exists. All caps, James of 15 differs a little bit in that it is a slice of life portrayal of one kid's coming of age. It's not full of drama. It is a slice of life think, are you there? God, it's me, Margaret, where the things that happen are often completely and utterly normal in any average person's life, but we're hooked on the relatability of the story and how we get inside people's heads and see that they're having the same feelings and difficulties as us. Unlike today, where TV TV is so plot heavy, especially in the era of limited series, where you just get you get six episodes. Codes, and something big has to happen each time. And there's a big reveal at the end. There's no big reveal in James at 15, we're just watching his life unfold. And for me, a kid in high school, that is all the premise that I need. That's all the drama you need, right? There's nothing more than that, because that alone is rife with material. Kristin
Michelle Newman 20:22
is making me think you know Judy Blume. One reason we love Judy Blume books so much is even if they were controversial, not to us or thankfully, to our parents who loved us reading them, but to all these people who so sadly still today, think you know, find fault with them and want to ban them, right? But she was tackling issues that kids go through, or thoughts that they have, fantasies that they have, for sure, that so many people were coming down on right, saying, No, absolutely not. You can't read that. You can't talk about menstruation in the school, or you can't talk about masturbation or sex or whatever. But what we've talked about when we celebrate Judy Blume here on the podcast, and what I know our listeners feel as well, and millions thankfully others, is that it's such an accurate representation of what teenagers are going through. You Can't We? Thankfully we can't ban teenagers thoughts or teenagers fantasies, right? Thank God, because they're so real and they're so true, and kids need, I mean, this is just me on my soapbox, but kids need to see that, and they need to read that, and they need to feel that they're not alone.
Unknown Speaker 21:33
There's a lot
Unknown Speaker 21:36
to discover.
Kristin Nilsen 21:39
They hit the themes hard in James at 15, all of them very familiar to each and every one of our own lives. And at the end of the day, James at 15 is about the hierarchy of high school, when the big, powerful seniors have Adam's apples and cars and James hasn't even sprouted hair anywhere on his body yet, and that makes you feel powerless, right? But you're definitely in your feelings, and you fall in love so easily. Like pretty much every episode, you fall in love every episode. And yet, how will you become a sexual being if you don't have a car or an Adam's apple? This is a big concern, and like we talked about with Lacey Melissa Sue Anderson, it's about that first time you get the opportunity to have a girlfriend, and all you can think about is making out. That is it. But you have nowhere to go to do these things. You have no privacy. This is the plight of the teenager. This is all you think about, not school or grades or your future, like your parents think you're sitting in class and you're thinking of places where you can go to be alone, so you can make out like there's the movie theater, there's the garage, then maybe when she's babysitting, or maybe we should go Camping. This is so utterly normal, it hurts like this is the only thing that occupies their brains. It's about feeling like you don't have a say in your own life, which, again, is the predicament of being 15. You want so badly to be an adult, but everyone is still treating you like a child and telling you what to do like you have to move to Boston, and so you make attempts to take control, like maybe you run away, and you partner up with Kate Jackson as you do, as you do when you're hitchhiking. And she's hitchhiking in these beautiful boots with her pants tucked in, just like I was trying to do, yes and a beautiful shearling coat. She's just hitchhiking, and you meet up with Kate Jackson, who talks about equitable relationships and being generous with fellow travelers on this planet, and she treats you like the adult that you crave to be. But you fall in love with her too, and you're back to being a child when she explains that you can only be friends because you're 15 and she's one of Charlie's Angels, right? It's just not gonna work. I thought you liked me a lot too.
Speaker 3 24:10
I do James in a different way. We're friends Tiger and I might be lovers. Oh, but I can't predict the future, but if I feel that it's right, if I feel it would be a good thing for both of us, that we both care about each other and understand each other, then I might stay with them just for night, just because something doesn't last. I mean, it's ugly. Can be beautiful.
Kristin Nilsen 24:42
And one you mentioned this earlier, Carolyn, one very clever way that they showed James' lack of control and how he exerted control was by giving him a rich fantasy life. Both the made for TV movie and the TV show are full of these fantasy sequences. Yes. So like when Melissa Sue Anderson drives away with the guy with the Adam's apple in a car. Obviously, he has a car and an Adam's apple. And James imagines how they get into a horrible accident, and he rushes in to save her from the mangled vehicle. He even has to give her mouth to mouth resuscitation. And of course, the senior boy who's driving he dies because, you know, that's just what happens his fantasy about Kate Jackson is that they are two Robin Hood characters, and they're slinging bows and arrows at the bad guys, and this solidifies their bond in little Robin Hood outfits. It's super cute. But also notice how, in his fantasy with Kate Jackson, it is equitable. They are in equal partnership, just like she talks about when they're hitchhiking. So he's not rescuing her, he's not saving her. They're fighting the bad guys side by side, and she's like a foot taller than he is.
Michelle Newman 25:57
And you guys, those little fantasy sequences are my favorite part of the show, because they're so real. And, yeah, I didn't. I was, you know, I did not watch James at 15, not because I wasn't allowed. I was eight years old. I wasn't even on my radar. I was, you know, still playing with my Fisher Price, you know, twice and Barbies and whatever. But like, I can just so see the importance of this show, and the importance of all these themes that the mere 20 episodes touched on and tackled for the 14, 1516, year olds watching it,
Kristin Nilsen 26:33
12 year olds, yeah, 1011, and 12.
Michelle Newman 26:36
Right, to
Carolyn Cochrane 26:37
your point, it's all those things. It's like almost going to be yes, like, what's coming like, this was my opportunity to kind of learn what's right around the bend. Like, where else was I going to learn that, or in a safe space, too? Yes, yeah, exactly, with a cute guy to look at on the screen. Well, that's like, you know, it's I that for me, it was like a little blueprint of what to expect and maybe how to walk through some of those chapters of life. That's what it meant to me, even more
Kristin Nilsen 27:07
than preparing the things that he was going through were actually happening to me at 10 years old too. Because when he's imagining Melissa Sue Anderson getting in a car accident and rescuing her, I'm still thinking about the Scott Fenwick who is sitting in front of me, right? I'm I may not be thinking about having sex with him, but I am thinking about being in my Robin Hood costume with him, riding in a car with him. So I'm having fantasies at 10 years old, in the same way that James at 15 is. It's just that my fantasies stop at a certain point, but we're all in the same place. We're all having the same feelings, right? And so it was relatable on so many levels. And then when he took it further than I was, where, than where my life was, well, that's just titillating,
Carolyn Cochrane 27:56
like, that's just one of my
Michelle Newman 27:58
favorite fantasy sequences in the pilot with Melissa Sue Anderson. I don't know where it I don't remember where it comes in, but he's imagining them as adults and being alone in a room, and he's like, What should we do? And she, like, reclines back on the couch, and she says something like, I think we should have, should we have some hot buttered rum?
Kristin Nilsen 28:20
And he's reading, he's reading a newspaper. Like, that's just a dark thing you could do, like,
Michelle Newman 28:25
like, in his little mind, that's what grown ups drink hot and actually, it's a very 1977 drink. Let's get real. But like, hot buttered rum. Also, they did such a good job on this show of really capturing what it's like to be 15 and in love every single person he has a crush on. He tells them he loves them. He does. I love you, Chris, I love me. Love Yeah, that's so real. It's not ridiculous. So if you're 1011, 1213, 1415, whatever, watching it, you're identifying with that. Nobody's telling him you're stupid, no brain. It's not a comedy. It was representation of themes and concepts that we needed someone to be walking through like it was,
Kristin Nilsen 29:03
as if the show took him seriously. It wasn't poking fun at his ability to fall in love once a week. It was that this is what happens, and he's really in his feelings, and we're taking that seriously and with
Michelle Newman 29:16
everybody, he's 15, he falls in love with his teachers, who happens to be a swim coach who walks around in her bathing suit with 15 year old boys. I was like, yes, and he's in a Speedo. I did have to think realistically. I think that they would have put her in like, track pants, because realistically, oh yes, 15 year old boys would have been walking around with boners. There might have been boners, for sure, everywhere, boners, boners, boners. But he falls in love. You know, he asks people out to the dance that are out of his league, or whatever. It's like. He's 15.
Kristin Nilsen 29:46
It's really too about leaning into your identity. They're all they're in adolescence. What are we doing? We're becoming sexual beings, and we're searching for our identity, leaning into the things that make you you, so that you can adapt and settle into. Your new stage of life, or into your new environment, instead of fighting it and trying on the unfamiliar identities, trying to be somebody else, like maybe when you arrive in Boston, you're going to borrow your dad's oversized suit coat and wear a tie to school, because that's what you see the kids in Boston doing. Instead of wearing the sweater that you were in Portland, and you just look you look ridiculous. So instead of doing that, you lean into who you are. You join the swim team, you use your photography so that you can start to see the beauty of this new place. And then you start making a name for yourself. And when he accomplishes this, when he leans into who he really is, he's not settling. He's really growing up. So in the end, it's like Boston is a metaphor for adolescents, right? Everything is new and different, and you don't know how to do anything or get anywhere. You're doing everything wrong, and you're supposed to know how to do all of these things, but you don't even the things you desperately know how you desperately want to do. You still don't know how to do it. Everything is so new, but if you relax and just be yourself, it will come naturally, organically, as it does for all people. Nobody stays a child forever, and the next thing you know, you have an Adam's apple
Michelle Newman 31:17
and a little caterpillar on your upper lip. Exactly,
Kristin Nilsen 31:21
and it was so and of course, I never could have a dub. Would never think this as a child watching the show, but as I'm watching it now, I'm like, Oh, I see Boston is change. Adolescence is change. You're getting to know who you are. You're trying to find out where you belong, and settling into it and figure out who you are. That's why they had to move to Boston.
Carolyn Cochrane 31:41
Well, I would love to have had the opportunity to talk to Dan Wakefield about what you just said, Chris, Unfortunately, he passed away last year, I think, at the age of 91 but he probably, he would have loved, I think, to have this conversation, because of all the research I didn't have, I didn't come across anything that said what you said as articulately. And I do believe, from what I have read, that's what he was trying to do, like he would have loved to have said yes,
Michelle Newman 32:11
that have known someone got it.
Kristin Nilsen 32:12
Yes. Yes, exactly. So hopefully,
Carolyn Cochrane 32:15
Dan, you you're hearing us some. I hope you hear that, Dan, you know that we got it
Kristin Nilsen 32:20
so at the intersection of these coming of age themes and the unconventional ethos that ran throughout the entire show is controversial topics, naturally, of course, right and correct me if I'm wrong. Carolyn, but one of the reasons the show ended was it was more than than a lack of audience, it was because of disagreements about how these controversial topics should be portrayed. Because you had the kids or people to camp, and then you had the sir and ma'am camp, and they did not get along. So one reason they didn't get along is because James at 15 was delivering stories from the kids point of view, showing how controversial things truly unfolded in the mind of their character. Like, hey, maybe we should make out in the garage. Like, that's a real thing that happened in the show. Let's make out in the garage because we don't have anywhere to go. And of course, you can imagine the sir and madam people are like, huh, we don't want to teach people about making out in the garage, but we have to show it.
Michelle Newman 33:19
And on the show, though that's this is just going back to, like what you said about how it was, the kind of the ethos of it, and it was really reflecting where you grew up, but like, they get caught, his parents come out and get caught, and she just says, Hey, how about you kids come in and make you some hot chocolate, like nobody gets in trouble.
Kristin Nilsen 33:38
It was really a beautiful scene, because, of course, what did you expect when the parents come out into the garage and knock on the window and they're in the back seat, by the way, they're so the parents know they can't pretend they weren't making out, and when they roll down the window, that's all she says, Yeah, and you guys, I kid you not. There was more than one occasion in which I was Why would I do this in my own driveway? But like making out in a car in my own driveway, and my mom would come out and ask if we wanted hot chocolate. Oh, maybe yes. Maybe she remembered James at 15. Would you guys like some hot chocolate? And so we would joke about that all the time. And when I saw that scene, I just cracked up, but it was kind of beautiful, because it was his parents acknowledging, well, of course, you're making out in the back seat of the car. You're 15, but let's let's come inside now, so that's where you can see the unconventional parenting taking place. And then you have the SIR and man people who wanted every controversial issue to be a very special episode with an adult delivering wise words that would show the kids the error of their ways. This was a recipe for disaster, right? They were not on the same page, and it eventually contributed to the end of the show, didn't it? Carolyn,
Carolyn Cochrane 34:51
definitely, because, yeah, we had the Creator leaving over some of these conversations that you're having the direction he wanted the show to go and the direction. In that the network wanted the show to go and felt pressure from those girl clutching parents. Mm, hmm,
Kristin Nilsen 35:04
and it would not have been the same show if they had gone the very special episode route. It's better that it ended. I
Carolyn Cochrane 35:11
really respect Dan Wakefield for saying that's not what I agreed to do. That's not what my show is going to be. And he was willing to walk away, probably from some money, but good for something he believed in.
Kristin Nilsen 35:23
So here's just a sampling of some of the issues tackled in just one short season. Just got to remind you, this is one season, people. These are all the things that happened. So we already talked about finding places to make out, which might include the controversial topic of Heavy Petting, like in a sleeping bag on a camping trip, there's a lot of pressure to lose your virginity. It might even be self imposed pressure. They don't necessarily make it like the locker room. Going, are you still a virgin? It's more like him. Going, so have you done it? How about you? Have you done it? Have you trying to figure out where he fits into the into the status of everybody else. There's an episode called the girl with the bad rep, which busts open the myth of the school slut, which Hint It's never true. Those are always lies. There's an episode where he helps his friend who is deaf. The deaf boy wants to mainstream into James's high school into a big city high school. He's always gone to a school for the deaf, and so Lance is going to take part in this. And it just it ends disastrously because bullying. But that also showed he wasn't just a hero, right? They're not just like, let's solve the world's problems, and I'm going to save this kid, No, instead, they're like, this kind of sucked, and it didn't work, and you wanted to do something good, and it failed reality again. I mean, it was just reality. Not everything ended like different strokes. Were your parents worried that you would run away and join a cult? No,
Carolyn Cochrane 36:59
no, because mine were, oh, understandable.
Kristin Nilsen 37:03
It was a thing, don't you? Did you guys not get, like, any speeches about Moonies or anything like that? Not
Carolyn Cochrane 37:10
really. But I have read that was a bad thing, like the whole satanist kind of yes culture, and that a lot of parents were really afraid of that. And that was a real thing for
Kristin Nilsen 37:20
coincidentally, it was at church. I remember my dad took me to some some speaker about Moonies and and I did not even know I was not in danger of this. I was not going to be a member of a cult. And I it felt like a very special episode. My dad taking me to this thing, Dad, I'm not gonna, I don't even like going to this church. You think I'm gonna go to somebody else's church, whatever. So anyway, James does dabble in sort of a culty sort of thing. And it's, it's another instance in which James is shown to be flawed. He's not the perfect person. He's gullible, and he has to find his own way. And again, his parents aren't like, no, no, don't join a cult. They're like, we want you to be open minded. Go ahead and check it out and see what you think. And he figures it out on his own. Or, how about this for an episode? Description, James MAKES A NEW FRIEND, and when she's not out scoring another coup as the school star reporter, she's hitting the bottle. Oh, yeah. Oh And who is it that's hitting the bottle? Yes, that
Carolyn Cochrane 38:21
would be Rosanna Arquette.
Kristin Nilsen 38:23
Yeah. And did you notice that in the first episode of the series, Rosanna Arquette is also in that one, but she's uncredited. Oh, who is she? She's just a girl. So James has a party because he doesn't, he hasn't found any friends at his new school, and he's so he decides to have a party at his house for newcomers, and the first person to knock on the door is Rosanna Arquette. And the YouTube video is so fuzzy I couldn't see her face, but it was her voice. I was like, That's Rosanna Arquette. So she's on screen for maybe three seconds, and that's it. And most famously, there's the episode that addresses James's first time everybody has one. It's a universal experience. Why doesn't anyone talk about it on TV? Maybe
Michelle Newman 39:05
because it's unusual when your uncle flies in from Florida to get you laid
Kristin Nilsen 39:10
the title of the episode is the gift it's and the gift is
Michelle Newman 39:15
a hooker. Uncle's birthday present is a 30 year old hooker who he's, like, here's the keys, and James, like, I'm getting a car. This is fantastic. Meanwhile, he really needs to get out of it, get out of there, because he really does want to go get laid, but with, for the first time, loves, but who he loves? Just watching these the other day, and I'm sending Carolyn and Kristen text literally all caps, what the fuck his uncle flew in from Florida to get his nephew laid and I will say, as I kept watching, there's a redeeming message. She's like, well, you have to, like, she won't let him leave. The Hooker won't let him leave. Yeah, because she's saying, like, your uncle's gonna be really upset. He got you me as a gift. You don't use your gift. But he's like, you know, you're probably really nice. But I feel like this. To be with someone I love, and I do really love her. And so there is a very sweet message that they made sure to get across in there that he's saying to the 30 year old hooker that his uncle bought for his 16 year old nephew. So you're
Kristin Nilsen 40:13
right. It does go back to Kay Jackson when they're hitchhiking. What does she say? Well,
Carolyn Cochrane 40:18
they mean another man while they're hitchhiking, and Kate and this other gentleman seem to like each other, and James wonders if they're going to, you know, basically, have sex. And she explains, well, I haven't decided yet, but, and then she kind of gives that really truthful.
Michelle Newman 40:36
She gives him the sex talk. She gives him the talk she
Kristin Nilsen 40:39
she gives him the talk his dad should have 100%
Michelle Newman 40:43
she does, yeah, yeah, yeah. The hitchhiker gives him the talk he should have gotten from his dad. And also, I will say that had his dad given him that same talk, he would have been like, Dad, no, just leave his grace. But coming from her, it was totally, totally
Carolyn Cochrane 40:56
different. But basically, you'll know when it's right and it should be with somebody that you care about, and that was take Jackson's message to him, and that's kind of the message they're giving us in this episode. It's not about just this one time with a hooker, yeah,
Kristin Nilsen 41:10
because he really does not for one second consider having sex with the hooker because, no, he's, coincidentally, his girlfriend is waiting for him because she has the house to herself, and this is their one opportunity. Remember the theme about how you can never be alone. This is their one opportunity, and they're gonna do it. And she's an exchange student from Sweden, and she's going back to Sweden, so it really is the only opportunity. And here's this hooker going, come on, and he's like, I can't. I can't. My girlfriend is waiting for me, and I'm gonna do it with her, because he really is in love. I'm in love with her. It's very and remember, he's tiny. He does not he's not gonna have sex with that woman. She's like a bosom. It's not gonna work. And he doesn't even for a second consider it. It's so awkward, but it was a super controversial and very anticipated episode. Everyone was waiting for this episode,
Carolyn Cochrane 42:06
yeah, my mom, this was when she let me, you know, she said, Oh, it's that episode tonight, like you go in. She wanted me, Wow, yes,
yes. God. I read
Michelle Newman 42:23
that one of the most controversial parts of that episode that people had such a problem with wasn't as much that he had sex, it was that he had unprotected sex. Because the second part of the episode is the Swedish exchange student is worried that she might be pregnant. She's worried she's going to get pregnant. And so now there's about 10 minutes of panic, and it's probably about three days of panic. But you know, he's talking with his friend about what do I do? And they're talking about being a parent, and he's Yes, it's very sweet. It's very fine. They go all the way, yeah. And then she's
Carolyn Cochrane 42:55
not pregnant. But what's really interesting is, this is the episode where Dan Wakefield makes the decision to leave because his original script and what he wanted to have in the storyline was that there was birth control, but the NBC sensor was like, nope, the viewers are not going to tolerate any discussion about birth control. So no, we're not going to have that. Not only are we not going to have that, we want the message that you have to pay a price if you have sex. That's the message we want to give to the viewer, like there's a punishment, basically, for partaking in this. And that's when Dan Wakefield said, you know, I'm out of here. That's not, I'm not standing for that message.
Kristin Nilsen 43:36
And you can feel that influence in the episode, because, on the one hand, you feel Dan, the spirit of Dan Wakefield, but then the actual sex part. As a kid, even as an adult, they they certainly don't show a thing. It's just like they're kissing on the couch, and the next day, he is like walking on air, and you're supposed to conclude from him walking on air that he is no longer a virgin. It was not clear to me as a kid at all. I still was like, so what is Virgin and What? What? I didn't know. Even
Michelle Newman 44:08
when she was she was worried she was pregnant, you didn't get it. Yeah, yeah.
Kristin Nilsen 44:12
Then I put two and two together, but I still wondered when it happened. And there is just a passing glance at birth control, it's so COVID. I did not know what they were talking about. I barely knew as an adult, because it's such a passing glance, you can feel that they're like, No, you can't say that, which ironically, is the thing that they should be saying, right, right? Not that there's a cost, but that you need to be responsible. And so then, of course, this whole part, the part about her thinking that she's pregnant, felt to me tacked on. It felt like they called all the actors up and called them back to set. That's exactly what happened. My god, that is really
Carolyn Cochrane 44:50
dead. Yeah. So the script, they had it rewritten and had to bring people back. I guess you
Kristin Nilsen 44:55
could call this part realistic or unbelievable. Both of them can be true. Two because it feels so out of left field, because there's no condom breaking, there was no mention of a late period. It just feels like someone said to them, you know, what can happen, right? And she just calls and says, I'm worried. I'm pregnant.
Carolyn Cochrane 45:14
It's so dumb. It's so dumb, it's so like, it doesn't even add up in terms of, like, you know, timing, and if you were really thinking that's
Kristin Nilsen 45:21
right, because it was yesterday we had sex yesterday, I'm worried I'm pregnant. It
Michelle Newman 45:25
was no, like, I have skipped a period or anything. No, all of a sudden
Carolyn Cochrane 45:28
they weren't going to say that. If they can't say that's true. Well,
Michelle Newman 45:32
I thought about that too, because when she calls him and she goes, good news, I'm not pregnant, and he's like, Are you sure? How do you know? And she's like, I just, I'm just not, I'm just, I just know. I was waiting to say, well, I got my comment period, yeah. Really
Carolyn Cochrane 45:46
the message the network wanted to give, and that these Pearl collectors wanted was, don't do it. It wasn't even like, this could happen, which, I mean, it kind of was, but it was more of the message like, don't do it, because then this will happen. So it just wasn't realistic, because this was going to happen. I mean, the act was going to happen, regardless of how Pearl clutching you are. Why not? As we say, give the good information, talk about the birth control. Have that be part of the storyline. Truly, that is what you want, right? You think, oh, that's not even gonna be an issue, because they're gonna watch this episode and never want to do it. So why would they need birth control? Because they don't want to do it, which we know is ridiculous.
Kristin Nilsen 46:26
All of it is not true and not effective. Let's just look at the teen pregnancy rates in Texas compared Minnesota, right? It's all in the numbers, people, it's all in the numbers. So that episode is followed up when, when Christina, the person that he loves and lost his virginity to, goes back to Sweden, and now James feels a little sluggish, and his mind immediately goes to, oh, no, I have
Michelle Newman 46:52
VD. It's because they actually he goes in and they have to, you know, what burns when he pees. He says, When I go to he John. He tells when it goes to the John, yeah, and then they, they go immediately into the classroom to watch the movie again, and the VD movie, and the teacher says, I know we've seen this before, but there's been a huge breakout of, you know, outbreak, outbreak, or whatever, of VD, so we have to watch it again. And, Oh, also, James is, like, sleeping on that. He's so tired. Oh yeah, he's so again, the first thing they say is the symptom is burning while urinating. And so he's like,
Kristin Nilsen 47:30
Yeah, but they really avoid saying burns when I pee, right? They really focus on the tired. Yeah. They're they don't. They don't want to refer to penises like nothing. No one urinates. No one has a penis and painful one to go to the John. He says, Yeah. And then he goes to his friend, Marlene, the wise and open minded and even keeled Marlene, who, of course, has an underground newspaper that has a phone number for a free clinic, because he's not going to go to his parents. Be like you guys, I think I have VD. Can we go to the doctor? And so he goes to this free clinic, and Tony Tennille, basically is his doctor. She's the cutest little free clinic nurse you've ever
Michelle Newman 48:10
seen a nurse. But he keeps saying, when's the doctor gonna come in? Where's the doctor? I think he's
Kristin Nilsen 48:14
worried he's gonna have to show his wiener to her. I don't wanna pull down my pants in front of you. And in the end, of course, he doesn't have VD. He's fine. He's healthy. But there's all sorts of drama that would only take place in the 70s, because there's a lot of emphasis on it's important that you inform your partner that you if you have this, if the if the result is positive, you need to inform your partner. Can I count on you to do that? And he promises Yes, he would okay. That means he has to make a long distance phone call to Sweden. How do you pay for that? And so then the episode becomes him like begging quarters off of people because he needs $11.40 for a three minute call to Sweden. It's it's so of the 70s and sad and sweet all at the same time. He's not a perfect person. He makes a lot of mistakes, like, like, back in the episode about the girl that they think is the school slut, he's like, awesome. I'm gonna get in on this. And, of course, does some horrible things. That's overstating it. He comes on to her, and she's like, What are you doing? I thought we were friends. He's like, Well, I thought you did it with everybody. And so he's being kind of a dick. Yeah, James, come on. But James learns that how hurt she's been by everybody thinking this about her, and then he becomes her champion. So you know, he's not perfect. But most poignantly, this was the most realistic episode, even more than the losing the virginity one, because as much controversy as that one had at the end of the pearl clutchers got control of the episode, and there were some difficulties with it, like we didn't know they had sex, the episode where the death of his friend from a rapidly growing form of cancer. How they did this so well in a single episode, I have no idea, but they did it, and there's this musical montage. Of James processing this experience to the soundtrack of Simon and Garfunkel bookends theme time
Unknown Speaker 50:07
it was, and what a
Speaker 4 50:14
time it was. It was a time of innocence, a time of confidence, and
Kristin Nilsen 50:20
it just busted me wide open, open mouth, crying. I'll never be able to hear that song again without crying.
Carolyn Cochrane 50:29
Yeah, that was, that's a heavy theme, and like you said, to do it in one hour. That was some really good use of music, good writing, all of those things. And
Kristin Nilsen 50:41
all very realistic too, like it wasn't melodramatic at all. It was, how would 15 year old boys manage the news of of a terminal illness and what they are to each other? And how do they do it? Awkwardly? They do it a lot by avoiding it. And so then, when his friend actually dies, then how does that happen? It's not a lot of tears, it's a lot of shock, and parents wringing their hands about how do you relate that information to your 15 year old son? It is quite heartbreaking. As you
Carolyn Cochrane 51:13
pointed out Kristen, how the Simon and Garfunkel song was so effectively used in the montage, and as James was processing this news about his friend, and they really used music very effectively in this whole series. And you guys, it was, I went back to look at the songs that were used in all of the episodes, like hit songs, big songs, like, you remember, this is kind of a kind of going into the world of FM, so we're right on that cusp, but we're also, at my age, at least, listening to a lot of radio. So these songs are familiar, and they're in the background of James's life, much like they're in the background of our own lives. And oh my gosh, you guys. I went and looked at the list of songs at the end of every episode, and I am going to make a playlist called James at 15, slash six slash 60 songs, because they were epic, and I want to share a few of those with you. And
Kristin Nilsen 52:12
some of them were some of them were like the montage, where it's helping us understand a scene. Sometimes it's the radio that's on in the back in their house, and oftentimes it's at the sub shop where the kids hang out and they dance. This is what I thought adolescents would be. You go and you order a coke with your friends, and then there are people behind you dancing just at the sub shop to
Michelle Newman 52:33
strawberry letter 22 Yes.
Kristin Nilsen 52:35
And it really grounded it in both the time, because these songs were, were what you were hearing on the radio that minute, which is so smart, because it helped us feel that the show was current and not out of date. Sometimes, when you see shows, they'll put, like, some pretend music, like they don't need it, like, if they're dancing, they put pretend music. And that's just dumb that it looks like dating game music or something like that. These were the songs that we would actually be dancing to in our living rooms. And it just, it just made everything feel so current and fresh. And it must have cost a lot of money.
Carolyn Cochrane 53:13
Well, yeah, because again, when I was looking at these lists of songs, these are top 40 Billy Joel sticks, you guys three by Sean.
Kristin Nilsen 53:27
What I missed that? Sean Cassidy songs, yes,
Carolyn Cochrane 53:31
we have to do Run. Run. That's rock and roll. And I think, hey, Deanie, Oh,
Kristin Nilsen 53:38
you're kidding. No, this is so exciting for me, because one of my very, very vivid memories of James at 15 was that this is the first place I ever heard the song cold as ice by foreigner.
It was such a good song. So in watching the show, I'm like, oh, I want that song. I want that song. And then I started hearing it on the radio, and that just created a lot of excitement for me. And it's a memory I've never let go of, because here's the show I couldn't watch, right? It was gone. We didn't have streaming yet, and yet I had this memory of cold as ice.
Michelle Newman 54:19
And now I bet every time you hear that song, you think, James at 15, 100% woman. You're like, Oh, I know that song, James, yes, from James at 15. And just the two, three episodes that I watched that I remembered to write down. And I know there were more, but one was slip, sliding away. Such a great song slip slide in a way. And then another one in the the gift episode, the losing, the Virginia that they play over and over, and they even play an instrumental version of it is just the way you are. Yes. That
Kristin Nilsen 54:52
was like, the theme. That was like, yeah, the
Michelle Newman 54:55
theme of of of James 15, James and Chris, yeah. Yeah.
Kristin Nilsen 54:59
And then there's I saw, and a lot of this is in the sub shop, baby come back short people by Randy Newman.
This is a big deal, because this is when James is having some confidence issues about being shorter than a lot of the girls. And he hates this song. He hates this song.
Michelle Newman 55:29
What a very real thing that boys go through when they get to 1516 the girls they like are taller than them. And that has to be so almost like emasculating. So
Kristin Nilsen 55:38
very Yeah, on and on. By Stephen Bishop, just remember, I love you. Just remember I love you. 50 ways to leave your lover. There's a lot of Paul Simon. We talked about bookends. We've
Carolyn Cochrane 55:51
got Come Sail Away. We hear that by sticks. We hear lay down Sally by Eric Clapton, I hate that song. Kristen. This is, this is one of several appearances by another one of your heart throbs we have love is thicker than water and Gibb what episode is that one that would be episode 21 the very last one? Oh, I know that it was episode two called friends that has cold as ice. One thing
Kristin Nilsen 56:21
that we haven't talked about music obviously played a big role in this show. And another way that the music played a big role is that James is a flute player, and he has his little flute, and he walks with his little flute, clays, he brings it to school. And then at one point he's he meets up with some musicians, and he's like, do you want to jam? And so then James is like jamming on His flute. Jamming. 70s
Carolyn Cochrane 56:44
is the year of the flute. I want to bring the flute back into popular music.
Kristin Nilsen 56:50
And he is just and a boy playing the flute. We have to, we have to remember that this is the 70s, and girls play flutes and boys play trumpets. But no James gonna jam on that flute. And only Lance Kerwin could pull that off with his little Peter torque hair swinging around. That's
Michelle Newman 57:06
the little, yeah, little frog boy,
Carolyn Cochrane 57:08
Lance, I know.
Michelle Newman 57:10
But Lance was, you know, he was a legitimate teen idol, yeah, I think this show really made him that, even though, in the 70s, he had and before James at 15, Lance Kerwin had appeared in a number of TV series, lots and lots of guest roles, you guys on things like emergency Little House on the Prairie, Prairie. He played Danny Peters in its first season. Shazam Gunsmoke, like I said earlier, escape to which mountain Wonder Woman, The Bionic Woman? Cannon. I mean, he has a huge filmography, yeah, but he also appeared in a fair amount of TV movies. He really broke out in The Loneliest Runner, which first aired on NBC on December 20, 1976 he's really, really cute in it too. He's like, he's, he really did kind of mature from that movie to the next year being in James at 15, the show only lasted. What did we say? 2021, episodes, right? But he became such a teenage heartthrob. Carolyn, right?
Carolyn Cochrane 58:11
Again, the boy next door. Kind of teen heart? Yeah. Sean Cassidy, it's not Andy Gibb it's the one you might, you just might, get, yeah, yeah,
Kristin Nilsen 58:20
and he's attainable. Knew
Michelle Newman 58:22
who Lance Kerwin was because of Tiger Beat and because he was all over my sister's walls. He went on then to famously star in the two part TV movie Salem's Lot in 1979 which is based on Gary
Carolyn Cochrane 58:35
as king. Can we just say that everybody Yes. Oh my God.
Michelle Newman 58:40
David, still, David soul rip, that's right, that's right. Course, he was in the boy who drank too much, that iconic ABC after school special with Scott Baio in 1980 I mean, arguably the most after schooly special, after school specials, right? And one I really want to focus an entire episode on soon. Post 1980 he did have a fair amount of credits, but he struggled a lot, as they do. We're not going to focus on the drugs, the alcohol or the falsifying documents charges, because this is a celebration of James, damn it. I hope that he did turn things around his to look at his pictures. It's a little bit hard. He looks like he kind of had a hard life. And you really can't see James and the late, the late pictures of Lance Kerwin, and he died just two years ago at age 62 from heart disease.
Kristin Nilsen 59:38
That sounds, yeah, that sounds like somebody who had a very hard life, and you it's hard to divorce somebody who was such a prolific child actor from an early death, right?
Carolyn Cochrane 59:53
And it's another one of those sad stories to me, of these young child actors, yeah, who just sort of. Like forgotten. And, you know, there's a lot of them that had really hard lives and died young, and it makes me really sad that they weren't maybe given some of the help that they needed. They weren't taken
Michelle Newman 1:00:13
care of. But like I said, let's, let's keep celebrating cutie patootie and James his
Kristin Nilsen 1:00:18
legacy, really his legacy, right? Oh, he did so many things. He did all of those things, but look at the impact that that that kid had in 20 episodes of television. It's pretty amazing. So
Carolyn Cochrane 1:00:29
okay, let's just get out our shovels and do a little digging and see if there are any fun rabbit hole facts that any of us came up with during our research. I will start with letting you know that, did you know that Kate Jackson was nominated for an Emmy Award for her portrayal of the hitchhiking friend? And,
Kristin Nilsen 1:00:49
yeah, that was such a good character. I mean, she really was Sabrina. I mean, the way she dressed, she was just hitchhiking.
Carolyn Cochrane 1:00:56
This was a different network. I mean, it would same year. Yeah, she was yeah angels at the time, yeah, and we would have recognized her. And also, as a young girl, kind of looked up to her, like whatever Kate Jackson says, yes, it's real, and we should listen to Kate
Kristin Nilsen 1:01:10
Jackson. I probably wanted to hitchhike
Michelle Newman 1:01:11
after I was just about to say, how many, how many teenage girls
Carolyn Cochrane 1:01:15
ran away and hitchhiked. We've talked about a couple of the guest stars, but I did also want to add, we talked about Vince Van Patten, Rosanna Arquette, Charlene Tilton makes an appearance, as does Vic Tabak Mel,
Kristin Nilsen 1:01:27
where was Charlene Tilton?
Carolyn Cochrane 1:01:30
Believe she was on the one with the deaf student. Did you watch that one? Yes, I
Kristin Nilsen 1:01:35
did. Oh, but there was, and there was so many. No, it could have been because there was a young girl that looked really familiar. And I was waiting to see who it was, and I and I didn't catch her name. I bet that was her. That was the episode. Wow, okay, yeah, because she was really little. She was really little. Vic, tayback, Mel, yeah, and, and easy readers. Girlfriend is sly mom from electric company, the librarian for a lecture company. Her name is Lee Chamberlain. She also, coincidentally was Angie's mom on all my children, we
Carolyn Cochrane 1:02:07
have James at 15. To thank for Dawson's Creek, because that the creator of Dawson's Creek, Kevin Williamson, has said my favorite show was James at 15, and that was the sort of inspiration for this show. I just remember that James talked the way I talked, and also said the things I wish I could think of, the things I thought when I was lying in bed at midnight that
Kristin Nilsen 1:02:31
matches, that totally matches exactly Dawson's Creek might be the might be the closest thing we have to I mean, it got a little soapy, but its origins were exactly that. What do kids really do and what do they really think? I also think when he talks about the he spoke the way I spoke, there were a couple of words that I picked up on that I didn't know, that were clearly slaying well, they start using gross a lot, and gross, I'm like, this is the advent of gross, because we didn't always say gross. That was a new word at one point, and it was right around 1970 1978 the other word they use a lot is grungy. I feel so grungy, I don't know I'm kind of grungy today. Do I look grungy? There's a lot of grungy. And then the other one was, she's quite a Snuggie. Like a cute girl walks by. Oh, she's quite a Snuggie. And I even rewound it like, are they saying snuggly? No, she's a Snuggie. She's quite a Snuggie. At
Carolyn Cochrane 1:03:26
one point, the little sister asked James if he was going with, oh, yeah, a girl, yeah. I remember that was what we used recently. Going wasn't like, going steady. It wasn't going with,
Michelle Newman 1:03:38
yeah. And I would say, did you know that Mark asked Trisha to go with him? Or, when I had a boy ask me, will you go with me? Yeah, right. I remember my stepfather used to give us such like shit about it. He'd be like, go. Like, my sister was like, Michelle's going with you know? Whoever? He'd be like, where are you going? Go away. And my mom
Kristin Nilsen 1:03:59
would ask about my friends. She'd be like, Oh, are they going steady? Like, Oh, Mom, that's so happy days. Oh,
Michelle Newman 1:04:05
it sounds so antiquated. Yeah, yeah.
Carolyn Cochrane 1:04:07
I know I speak out to me, and I thought, oh my gosh, that's right. Going with really doesn't make any sense. But that was, that was what we used.
Kristin Nilsen 1:04:15
Well, I think that one thing that James at 15 did, it's very clear, was show the kids and teens of the 70s. The kids and teens of the 70s, there was no storytelling or mythology about what adolescents should look like or should not look like. It just showed you what adolescents did look like all through the eyes of one very ordinary, relatable under tall, but Tiger Beat worthy character named James, who represented all of us. Thank you so much for listening today, and we will see you next time. And we'd
Michelle Newman 1:04:49
like to give a huge shout out to our incredible patrons. You guys keep the lights on around here and are the main reason we are able to keep on trucking today. We're giving a big thank you. You to patrons. Rose Allison, Liz, Marilyn, Sean, Courtney, Carla, Aaron, Debbie, Lisa Angela, Christine, Amy, Denise and Tanya, thanks. You guys. Thanks. You guys, yes, if you would like to check out our Patreon page and just kind of see the perks that our patrons get as a huge thank you from us. Just go to patreon.com P, A, T, R, e o n.com, and pop culture Preservation Society right up in the search box.
Kristin Nilsen 1:05:31
In the meantime, let's raise our glasses for a toast courtesy of the cast of Threes Company, two good times, two Happy Days,
Carolyn Cochrane 1:05:39
Two Little House on the Prairie. Cheers the
Kristin Nilsen 1:05:44
information, opinions and comments expressed on the pop culture Preservation Society podcast belongs solely to Carolyn the crushologist and hello Newman, and are in no way representative of our employers or affiliates. And though we truly believe we are always right, there is always a first time the PCPs is written, produced and recorded in Minneapolis, Minnesota, home of the fictional wjm studios and our beloved Mary Richards Nanu. Nanu, keep on trucking and May the Force Be With You. You