GenX = Generation Divorce with author Priscilla Gilman
Speaker 1 0:00
Hi, this is Shaun Cassidy and you are listening to the pop culture Preservation Society with Kristen, and Carolyn and Michelle and Shaun Cassidy. Which is not one word that they say it like one word.
Speaker 2 0:16
My father, who was a professor at the Yale School of Drama had been Meryl Streep's teacher at Yale. And I grew up knowing Meryl she would come to parties and I loved her and I thought she was beautiful. And this was the first movie that I'd seen her and I hadn't seen her actually perform in a movie before. Dustin Hoffman I immediately fell in love with he's a little sexy is a short sexy guy in this movie. Yeah,
Kristin Nilsen 0:40
he knows it's sexy. It's the gene Oh yes. And no. Come on get
Carolyn Cochrane 1:01
will make you welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society. The podcast for people born in the big wheel generation whose first pet was a pet rock.
Michelle Newman 1:12
We believe our Gen X childhoods gave us unforgettable songs, stories, characters and images. And if we don't talk about them, they'll disappear like Marshall will and Holly on a routine expedition.
Kristin Nilsen 1:24
And today we'll continue to save the Gen X divorce movie Kramer vs. Kramer with Priscilla Gilman, the woman who felt so much connection to this movie that she actually included it in her memoir, The critics daughter, and Carolyn. I'm Kristen. And
Michelle Newman 1:39
I'm Michelle and we are your pop culture preservationists.
Kristin Nilsen 1:49
Last week, we dissected the movie Kramer versus Kramer and concluded that now unintentionally and in retrospect, this movie really is speaking directly to the children of the Gen X era, because it was our parents who started divorcing on mass after the creation of no fault divorce in the 1970s. As I said last week, it is the reason we are the latchkey generation. And we have a guest who's going to tell us why. Priscilla Gilman is the author of the critics daughter a memoir about her relationship with her father, who was a very famous drama critic named Richard Gilman. But part of what makes her story compelling is that there is a before and after element to the story before her parents divorce, and after. And that's where I realized that this is the story of all of us, all of us from Generation X. Because even if your parents weren't divorced, your friend's parents were the houses the where you went to play. Those people might have been divorced. We were all affected by the wave of divorces that started in the 1970s.
Michelle Newman 2:49
I really really could relate to the critics daughter and Priscilla story. Not at all because my childhood was anywhere in here as a like, just out there as hers. Oh my goodness, you guys, the name dropping is insane. Lots of female people in her eyes.
Kristin Nilsen 3:07
So put it that way. It's so
Michelle Newman 3:09
great. The experiences she had the story she lived is just tremendous. But boy, can I relate to the weight of what she carried and the responsibility she felt to making one parent happy. And I guarantee you a listeners if you're a child of divorce, you might have not grown up on the Upper West Side and went to private school or had famous literary agents. Or you know, famous I mean, my goodness, her dad. You know, Meryl Streep was one of his drama students at Yale. So we might not have had those experiences. But oh, wow, is her story relatable to all of us who had the emotional feelings and weight that she carried? Yeah, and
Carolyn Cochrane 3:51
I'll go so far as to say in divorce didn't affect me directly. And really none of my friends either. But particular school? What? Yeah, nificant it's all embedded in some of that. There was always the fear though, because it was so much in our culture and you know, movies and books and stuff. I'm starting to notice it a lot more. So there's always that threat in the back of your head like, oh my gosh, what if what if, like when you hear your parents argue, are they gonna get it? Yes. But there's also an element in Priscilla's story that I completely resonated with Priscilla's relationship with her dad and the caretaking she feels for him like having to kind of make him happy. There's almost a maternal kind of aspect to her relationship with him that she articulates so well. And I was like, bingo. She talks about learning sports and watching sports with her dad. She wanted to make him happy. He didn't have the sun to watch these things with recording or I don't want to say that because he does emphasize, but she wants. She wanted to watch the sports and be that person. For her dad who he could enjoy these things with that he loves so much. And oh my gosh, word for word verbatim that could have been me. I've probably shared that with with our listeners before. But I remember in my head as a little little kid saying, Carolyn, you're you got to be the son that Dad, your dad didn't have you got to go fishing, you've got to memorize all the NFL teams, you have to know what division they're in you, you just have to it wasn't it was just a given. And to see someone else or to read, someone else had that same experience, regardless of the divorce piece. I felt so seen. I cannot even tell you. So the book, you don't have to experience divorce or anything like that, to have this book resonate with you on so many levels. But culture references right there in and of itself is such a big right
Kristin Nilsen 5:47
for and for me, my parents were married. But virtually all of my friends. I mean, almost all of them just live with their moms. I mean, and I was public school, working working class area. So I think it really makes a difference where you came from and what your community was and how much divorce was happening because of that. So I was surrounded by it. And that could be one reason that Kramer versus Kramer was so interesting to me.
Michelle Newman 6:12
Well, and I think I could speak for hours about the fun pop culture mentions that are so relatable and the critics daughter, but what I took away from this book is how similar My experience was to Priscilla's and let me clarify our childhoods were wildly different. But we both carried so much weight as children weight of pleasing one parent, making sure one was okay worrying constantly, if they were happy in life with us, and feeling like it was our responsibility to make sure they were I found myself gasping out loud and sometimes tearing up when reading certain passages in the critics daughter. It hit hard. And so for those of you listening, that come from divorced homes, regardless of Have you had a childhood anywhere near similar to Priscilla's or not, I think you'll probably feel the same. Yes,
Kristin Nilsen 7:01
I agree. And the reason that Priscilla is here today outside of the the umbrella of divorce is that she in this book has a lot to say about her childhood fascination with Kramer vs. Kramer. Please enjoy this interview with Priscilla Gilman.
Joining us today is writer Priscilla Gilman. Priscilla writes about literature parenting autism and education and her first book the anti romantic child, which is about her parenting journey with her neurodiverse child won tons of awards and was selected as one of the best books of 2011 by the Chicago Tribune. And her newest book, The critics daughter comes out in paperback tomorrow. She's a longtime member of the pop culture Preservation Society. And we are so excited to finally meet you in person like quote unquote person on Zoom. Priscilla, thank you so much for joining. Yeah,
Speaker 2 7:55
I am boosting with happiness right now. This is like a dream come to be with you all. I'm serious. Like this is amazing.
Kristin Nilsen 8:05
Priscilla is one of us. There is no doubt she is one of us. And she's one of all of you. That's why she's here today. So the three of us just had a great discussion of your book, The critics daughter. And the reason that you're here today is because in its pages, you note your childhood fascination with the movie Kramer versus Kramer. And that reference that I mean it you just drop it in very suddenly. Right. But that reference in your book is the reason that we decided to dedicate an entire episode to Kramer versus Kramer. Because one, me too. I mean, how weird that we children felt so strongly about this very adult movie. And to I think the reason that's notable is because of what was happening to we children or US children, I can I get the grandma
Unknown Speaker 8:52
don't really want to go.
Kristin Nilsen 8:54
Both we children as children in 1979 and 1980. And so let's start right there. Tell us about your fascination as a child with this movie and why you included that information in your Oh,
Speaker 2 9:06
it was so cathartic to write about it, Kristen, I have to say because it has haunted me for so many years. I think it was 1981 or 1982 that I first saw it and I saw it on HBO, a weekend afternoon. I'm like what great movies on HBO and it was on repeat. So I watched it from about a third of the way in and then I just watched it probably like five or 10 times over the next two weeks. I'm obsessed with it. And I think in part because it was a New York City movie. Right? It's set in New York City in the 70s. I was born in 1970. I grew up on the Upper West Side, going to Central Park there all those scenes in the park walking in the in the playgrounds of New York City in the apartment buildings that whole sort of world. Number one, number two, my father who was a professor at the Yale School of Drama had been Meryl Streep's teacher at Yale. And I grew up knowing Meryl she would come to parties and I loved her. And I thought she was beautiful. And this was the first movie that I'd seen her and I hadn't seen her actually perform in a movie before. Dustin Hoffman, I immediately fell in love with is a little short, sexy guy in this movie. Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Newman 10:24
It's the gene. Oh.
Kristin Nilsen 10:27
Yeah. About the cut of the denim that Dustin Hoffman
Speaker 2 10:33
needs to find out what it was and recommend it to the men in our lives. Well,
Michelle Newman 10:37
it was kind of high waisted. I kind of cut it. Yeah. And it kind of had the front pockets like but
Speaker 2 10:44
today, and the Blazers with the jeans and the sweaters. Yeah, combined with the tenderness. Yeah, it was that stew of like, he had confidence, but yet he was vulnerable. And he was loving. And he I mean, it was just incredible. But the most fundamental, we might say primal reason why I responded to this movie is that my parents had split up in the fall of 1980. And this was the first I would say, piece of art that I had encountered or experienced, that describe the dissolution of a family and a bitter dissolution at that, because my parents had an extremely acrimonious separation slash divorce. It took them like eight years to get divorced. And
Kristin Nilsen 11:32
so it resonated with you like somebody was telling your story on the screen. And that made you feel sadness. And
Speaker 2 11:37
you know, it's funny Christian, because in the movie, they have only one child, it's a boy, right? I have a sister and an older brother for my father's first marriage. And my mother didn't walk out. In fact, it was my father who disappeared from my everyday life. Because my mother ended the marriage. We stayed with my mother and my father was bouncing around from apartment to apartment in the sublets. And I didn't really see my father very much for the first couple of years. But I think the other thing that resonated for me is that my father was an incredibly passionate, involved engaging parent. And so over the course of the movie, Dustin Hoffman evolves into what my father always had been. Right, he learns how to be an involved parent, he learns, because in the beginning of the movie, I mean, I think I write about this in my book, I say, like, the character couldn't be farther from my father, like my father was a drama critic. He was a writer he taught at Yale he was, and Dustin Hoffman is like this advertising guy, and he's talking about his Burberry coat is has all this swagger and he wants to get the accounts. He's all about making money. But there was something the vulnerability in him the feeling of being blindsided by the wife saying, it's done. I'm out and leaving. Yeah, I had experienced my father's devastation, my mother, seemingly out of the blue ended their marriage, and the sort of, that's how
Kristin Nilsen 13:05
it feels. Yeah.
Michelle Newman 13:07
Well, and I yeah, I'm thinking to that similar to, to me as a child watching this movie. And now as an adult reading your book, that maybe you also related to Billy in a way so for me, I was relating to Billy as a child and then to you just when I recently read your book as having to shoulder as coming from a broken home, having to shoulder the weight of all the emotions and the responsibility you feel towards one parent or another. And you can see that and Billy that little, little. So amazed, Justin
Speaker 2 13:40
Henry, right in cool, right? Yeah, performance, isn't
Kristin Nilsen 13:43
it? So he's not acting. It's like he's not acting. He's he is actually experiencing all of Yeah, it's stunning.
Michelle Newman 13:50
So so I just wondering so like, even though Kramer vs. Kramer, the situation is a little bit. It's the same, but it's also a little bit different for you. Maybe you're you're relating, though to all the emotions Billy's carrying? Yeah. Because I know for me, that's what it was. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 14:09
And that feeling of being torn between two parents, who are acrimonious and quote unquote, hate each other for a while, although in Kramer vs. Kramer, they managed by the end of that last scene, I am sobbing in that last scene where there's that tender moment where he calmed what she recognizes the value of his parenting and she validates him as a parent. And he affirms her and they have this kind of beautiful exchange and that last seen, and I think that's what I was craving, and what I didn't get and what I didn't experience.
Kristin Nilsen 14:46
Well, and I also wonder if you no matter how loving and therefore you your father was, when you're in this situation, there's always an elusive parent. You're always needing you're always wanting more, you don't have that with you all the time. And I just wonder if that is something that even even with a parent who he really wanted to be with you, but my God, it was hard for you to get together with him was hard for you to find a rhythm to find. What is the word I'm looking for to have a custom arrangement where you felt like you got enough? Oh,
Michelle Newman 15:25
my God, I didn't get enough of my just described my childhood. Yeah, you just described on my childhood. I mean, Priscilla, we could talk for hours about the similar similarities of our situations. But I think I think that, that that has to be something that you felt watching the movie.
Speaker 2 15:43
Absolutely. And like what you just did, absolutely. And I think also, the movie, the movie is so brilliant. I watched it again with my younger son, actually, when I was working on and I took like 20 pages of notes, and then distilled it down to the four pages that appear in the book. And in my book, I have something that I ended up being called 40 characters in search of my father. And it starts with like, the king from the King and I and Ted Kramer is one of the main ones and I do this extended riff on my father as Ted grammer. And sort of wanting in, in a way, it was very ahead of its time this movie, because it was suggesting it was very of its time in the sense that it captured the zeitgeist where women were finally feeling empowered to say, You know what, I'm not happy and fulfilled in this marriage. And I need to find myself, right. And Meryl Streep, she's very unhappy, she walks out, she comes back, and that fathers could parent as effectively and lovingly, as mothers. And that I that I really responded to, because I had always felt like, why am I not seeing my father enough, my father couldn't afford a place that we could sleep over in. And my parents were fighting over money. And it was very bitter. But I think the other thing about Billy, he was a little bit more outspoken than I was, and I admired him for that. Like when things weren't going well, he would sort of call it out. It's like, no, that's not the way to do the front shows, you know, like, he was blunt. And he was straightforward in a way that I didn't feel that I could be because I was so invested in protecting both of my parents emotionally, and taking care of them being that kind of parental FIDE child that was watching out for them. But I did really appreciate you know, his bedroom, in the movie, I want a bed
Kristin Nilsen 17:33
at that bedroom, like the clouds on the wall on the wall, the clouds sort
Speaker 2 17:39
of captures what all and you know, we're all parents and what we want for our children and what our parents wanted for us, which is that our children can exist in this protected beautiful, almost ethereal bubble of romanticism, right in that safe space of their bedroom, and how separation and divorce shatters that, right, but how you're continually trying to bring your child back into that safe and protected space. And so those scenes where he's crying in the bed, but then Dustin Hoffman, remember he finds the picture? And he puts it out of the mother. And that's
Kristin Nilsen 18:15
the picture of Meryl Streep. Yeah.
Michelle Newman 18:17
What what was that? Like? I was like, I have no experience with something like one of my parents was sharing
Speaker 2 18:23
my book. I'm like, neither of my parents would ever be like, Oh, look, let's celebrate the other parent and put them on. I was so jealous. No,
Michelle Newman 18:34
yeah, my mom would have been like, if you're gonna have a framed picture of daddy, then we're going to make sure you have like you wait, why do you have a framed picture of your father and not me? To this day, actually, well, let's talk about divorce just a little bit during this time period. Because other than your own experience, which was really heavy, emotionally, we learn from your book. What did you know about divorce statistics in this time period, because it seems that every other Gen XOR comes from a broken home. It doesn't.
Speaker 2 19:08
And it's funny because I didn't my friends from school, I went to an all girls school on the east side called rarely. Very few of my friends had divorced parents, although one of my close friends parents had married each other after having split from previous spouses. But I do talk in the book about this other family that we were close friends with, that we spent some summers with. And they had split up a couple of years before and they had a son. So one side I think I also thought about them when I was watching movie because my friend Sebastian was like the Billy and I did identify with that. Yeah, and I remember thinking that my mother was sort of ruminative after hearing about the split. I was like, this is a little weird, but my parents would always say to us when they fought, we will never ever, ever get divorced. And they were really and that was part of the feeling of this All that I was like, we asked you and obviously if we were asking the Michelle, we must have been aware that there were increasing numbers of people splitting off in our circle. Because why were we asking
Michelle Newman 20:12
that was worrisome. And
Speaker 2 20:14
but I didn't know anything about the statistics. And then as I went through, because it was 1980, that they announced it 1981 That my father moved out. I was in fifth grade. As I moved into middle and high school, a lot of my friends parents started splitting up. So it felt like it was gaining steam and like gaining momentum. Yeah.
Michelle Newman 20:33
Yeah. Well, isn't that about the time to you guys had Marriage Encounter was a really big thing. Yeah. Remember that Marriage Encounter my friend's parents? Did your parents? Yeah. And they had like the little
Speaker 2 20:45
girl and I don't know what this is told me marriage and Oh, my God. bumper
Kristin Nilsen 20:52
sticker. We didn't talk about this in New York City. There were a Thera Marriage Encounter bumper stickers that were like the advertising, right? Yeah, I
Michelle Newman 20:59
think, Carolyn, why don't you might Alerus
Carolyn Cochrane 21:01
would go on these marriage retreats. It was very, I mean, we grew up very Catholic with so divorce was kind of not something that I was very familiar with, even my friends, you know, that was something that you wouldn't do. Although I shared with Kristen and Michelle, I think the other day, my mom recently had told my daughter and myself that if she wasn't Catholic, and my parents weren't Catholic, she probably would have divorced my dad, which let me tell you hearing that. Yeah. And I think there would be a lot that would go into that. And we'd have to kind of, you know, parse that out a bit. But that being said, this religious kind of aspect of we're going to help keep your marriage strong, maybe because of all these people that are starting to get divorced. And that makes a lot of sense, Carolyn, we're gonna have this kind of church based based counseling kind of thing. And, and they would go on marriage retreats, and yeah, but they would also, you know, like, to your point of arguing and being in a place where we'd say, are you ever going to, you know, get a divorce, and they know, we're going to be together forever? And but yet always that worry in the back of your head that it's so I can't imagine what that was like for you when they did after promising you over and over again, that that would not that's it really
Speaker 2 22:29
was and I think, you know, I was I was thinking, one thing I didn't say is that my father had been married before. So he had been divorced. And I had this half brother, from my father's first marriage, but both of my sets of grandparents were religious, conservative, religious Jews, conservative religious Christians, there was no divorce on either side of the family. My father was kind of almost a black sheep because he had gotten divorced from his first wife. And I felt that to dissolve a second marriage would destroy him, like I always felt from early childhood. My mother, my grandparents got along, it was crazy. Like the Midwestern grandparents went fishing with the Jewish, Russian Jews. They all got along great. And it was such an incredible ecosystem that we function so well intended until it didn't. And I say in the book that the night that I heard them talking in the kitchen, when I realized that something was really off, I'm writing in my Holly, Gaby journal, it really be turned on, I'm reading please don't let them get divorced, please, I'll do anything. If they don't split up. I'll do anything. Please, please, please. Oh, my God, I just knew and then my mother said, you know, it's a trial separation. And I remember knowing this is not a separation. This is not a trial. This is not an attempt. This is not an effort. This is not an experiment. I looked at her face, and I was like, she's out. This is done. And that, I think resonated when I saw Kramer versus Kramer just how determined Meryl Streep is to get out and there was no pulling her back, no matter how charming and sexy to us. Dustin Hoffman was in those jeans. You can't get
Michelle Newman 24:12
her back. Yeah, no, that's so true that you must have seen yourself so much and your family situation in that movie. Yes, I didn't. I mean, I have zero experience with an intact family. My parents got divorced when I was a baby. So it was probably around 1970. And I was born in 1969. So I think I was about one. I get a different story a lot. So but but all I know is a broken home. And by broken I mean shattered and I've lived my whole life as the product of divorce. And I've had to reconcile and overcome a tremendous amount of emotional roadblocks. And I've had, you know, years of therapy, where basically this is what we talk about every time. So we go back to the 70s, the early 80s Where you say I didn't know or I knew some kids who are getting divorced. I know nothing but it ra just craved an intact family. And it's probably the reason I threw myself into making sure my own family. You know, the one that I created has, you know, is so successful and intact and wonderful and loving. That only took like, I don't know what you guys probably two years of therapy it's a lot all I can do is be sad about it. But yeah, so So you see this little boy in the movie with the weight of being pulled and not knowing and even though the situation was different from mine, because I don't remember anybody telling me we're getting divorced. It's a he's who I attached to in Kramer vs. Forever. It was delays. He's probably the reason I watched it over and
Speaker 2 25:44
over. Yeah, yes. I think I attached to him and I was able to attach to the Meryl Streep character probably better because I knew her. And I could see in her face. She did a fantastic job where she's not just a villain. She's like, you can see the pent up frustration, the sadness, you can see how the Dustin Hoffman character has been irritating to her husband not hearing her husband not listen. dismissive. Exactly. And the other thing that I really did appreciate about the movie and that I craved in my own life. Because Michelle, as you you know, Wow, your story. I was like to your getting teary while you were talking. We both had a really, really traumatic loss. And we were 10. And you know, I spent the rest of my father's life my father was diagnosed with terminal cancer when I was 27. And he died nine years later, but he was sick pretty much from when I was 2122. He had a heart attack when I was 22. My mother never reconciled to him was never positive about him, never said a good word about him. My father remarried and got it right the third time and had a beautiful marriage, which was inspiring to me. And my father never said a bad word about my mother, which was interesting to me. Wow, I
Michelle Newman 26:57
don't remember my father saying a bad word about my mother either. However, that could very well be. I've made I only saw him twice a year. But that could be something that right? Until, and my mother always said bad things about my father until he died. And then she said nice things about him. And I still to this day have to work through that in therapy, because it's like, now, Michelle.
Speaker 2 27:20
So we oh my god, Michelle, because remember the moment in my book where I say, I'm working at my mother's literary agency, when my father dies. And we're getting calls at the agency from family friends who knew both my mom and me. And I hear my mom's saying nice things about my father. And I heard her saying these very empathetic things. And I was like, why couldn't you have shown this empathy when he was alive? He died probably feeling that you didn't love him or appreciate him. And but but I think part of the process of writing the book and like going back and talking to my sister, my brother and talking to my mom, my mom finally gave me that affirmation of my father's essential worth that all of us children of divorce crave. And no matter my father was not a terrible husband. But, you know, no matter how terrible someone is, in a relationship, you have to be able to separate out their role as a parent. And if they're a good parent value that.
Kristin Nilsen 28:17
And you that's so interesting, you needed that you needed your mom to say he was a good man, like you would think that would be between them. But it is not. The child needs to hear that. And I feel like our generation were the guinea pigs, when parents were just starting to to this whole divorce wave was coming and nobody knew how to do it yet. And we are the victims of that. And now people have divorce counselors, and there are rules. And there are guidelines, there's protocol about you would never disparage any other. Because how it will damage your child. We didn't have
Speaker 2 28:55
it. You've nailed it, Kristen. That's what it was like. And you know, when my book came out, and I was the New York Times reporter came to my house because they they profiled me and they were like, aren't you furious at your mother? And can you believe your father said this and that and, you know, I never really was angry. To write the book, I had to get back to those feelings of shock and betrayal and disappointment. But you know, what I always say when people ask me this is there was no language for how to talk to children about divorce. And it was also shameful, and it was hushed up. And we also didn't get therapy. Michelle, I wonder you too, like, my sister and I, eventually when we were in college demanded therapy, because we said we have never been able to process this. We were taught, let's just move on. Everything's gonna be great. And it wasn't great. And it was even as I was like, having so much fun with pop culture, which I talk about a lot in my book and going to dances and dancing Duran Duran and men at work. and enjoying my life. There was this there was this suppressed right at the surface sense of sadness. And I think also, you know, when you're 10 you all will appreciate this more than most people. It's like my childhood ended when my parents split up because then the next year I'm in sixth grade, I'm in middle school, I'm starting to go to dances with boys. And so all of those watching the Hardy Boys with my father was Shaun Cassidy, Sean, we're calling him out here, celebrating. Immersing ourselves in children's books and that magical enchanted fairy tale world of childhood that my father presided over and he watched Sesame Street with us, and he did all those 70s things with us, you know, it felt like that. And I think it's one of the reasons why my sister and I have always been such nostalgic girls. Because going back and rereading the William strike books, you know, Sylvester the magic papillary, the amazing bone and Amos and Boris or the EB white books, or watching getting the DVDs of Hardy Boys and watching them. It's a way for us to be transported back to that era before, right? We had to become grownups too soon.
Michelle Newman 31:10
Oh, my God, right. And even though my parents didn't get divorced when I was 10, like I told you, I lost my father when I was 10. And I always say that to people I used to actually I think the first time I ever said that Carolyn and Kristen, I correct me if I'm wrong, you guys, but I think I said my father died when I was 10. And it took me about 30 minutes before I thought he didn't die. And I was 10 Boo. He like, you know, he died when I was 22. White, it comes out of my mouth because I didn't even get to say goodbye. Like I loved my daddy and like, so when I say Mistakes were made, you know, by adults who knew better. It's very convenient for me to blame my mother where my father and for a lot of different reasons, was to blame as well. He died years ago, and I lost him. So it's way more convenient. Exactly, exactly. For that reason, though, just I was so like, I had shame. My dad actually would try to call sometimes, and I wouldn't. Nobody would let me talk to him on the phone. Or then one time when my stepfather when I was just alone with my stepfather. And he said, your dad's on the phone. I was like, no, no, no, because I was embarrassed because I was like, Daddy must think I'm like, I haven't reached out to him or written him a letter because I knew I wasn't supposed to. So like I had shame and embarrassment. And I had to grow up really fast in a lot of ways too. And so I so agree with you that, that time the pop culture things, the Gen X things, the books, the movies, my friendship with someone who's still my best friend to this day. Such an important time for me fifth and sixth and seventh grade. I want to say something really quick, though, um, just about what you said about the Meryl Streep character and how we can you can see right you can you can see what she was going through something we just talked about. Just a little bit ago, when we were talking about the movie. I have a really unpopular opinion about that. And it has everything to do with my own experience. So right. I am 54. And I still to this day will struggle with people not putting their child first even though as a 54 year old adult, I can 100% see that side of it. I am always going to be my 10 year old self and a situation like that. And so it's a it's a great movie for that reason, because there it is layered, and you can have great debates and great conversation about that, depending on who you're talking to.
Kristin Nilsen 33:31
Yeah, everybody brings something different to it. In
Carolyn Cochrane 33:34
the end, really the critic starter is very much about just what we said about being Gen X and that nostalgia. And the reason that Kramer versus Kramer was important to you was because you were part of what we've talked about this whole time, that cultural shift in which parents were divorcing in much bigger numbers. And that really changed the lives of so many of us Gen X kids and turning us into latchkey kids having to split our lives into like both you and Michelle have so wonderfully articulated here. And another thing to note is that you include a lot of pop culture reference. Yeah. And so it's fun and not just Kramer vs. Kramer, you really, really were anchoring in that particular time period. That particular Gen X era. Can you you've told us a little bit about that already. But can you expand on that a little bit more? Why was that such an important?
Speaker 2 34:25
Oh, Carolyn, it's so interesting. As I'm speaking to all I'm realizing something that I've never quite articulated to myself before. At the time that this was all happening. All of this fun pop culture stuff like I talked about going to et with my dad and going to dances and winning albums right? From I think business as usual was one of the first and loving the Go Go's and you know, the whole thing. It got me through this struggle and the disorientation and the fear and the anxiety about my parents at the time. Time. And then when I was writing my book, I would have to write a very emotional scene right about going to a sleepover in a strange apartment with my father where he had no furniture and he started to cry. And he said, I wish I had two girls more. So I would write that scene I would feel emotionally drained. And then I would say, now it's time to do my 70s and 80s research. And so I would go and research when Annie opens on Broadway, and I saw Sarah Jessica Parker and finding videos and listening to the songs from Annie. And so it was almost like the nostalgia was a bomb and a support both at the time. And in the writing of the book. Your pop culture therapy, we need that. Yeah,
Carolyn Cochrane 35:46
yes. And we have found that to be the case and our own research and our own personal lives as we, you know, are going through things but it's like, oh, really, I get to research all the Christmas specials and bring it I try to be in a bad mood.
Speaker 2 36:00
Rankin bass rabbit hole is the cure.
Kristin Nilsen 36:07
Really, it really is. And you also mentioned I found this very interesting too. And I wondered if this was one reason that all of these pop culture references were in the book was because your parents were not into pop culture. And they were very limiting and they didn't approve of certain things. And of course that just wants it. We want a more, right we just
Speaker 2 36:27
are. Oh my gosh, okay, Kristen. As soon as my dad had moved out, my sister and I were like, Bring on the Brady Bunch. We started watching Fantasy Island. Like all I mean, and my mother allowed it because she got us Atari. She got us HBO. The reason? Sorry, we vs Kramer is because my parents split up. And I was a latchkey kid, and I was alone in alone. And I also watched Friday. Yeah, teens. The first one I can tell you, Jason's not the killer. It's his mother in the first one.
Michelle Newman 37:02
I love the reference. Yeah. listeners how she's saying, you know, then she got to do all the things. There's a reference where you said you were a tube channel and you're like, Hey, God, my dad didn't see me. That and I just had to laugh because right we can all picture the tube tops constrict
Speaker 2 37:22
shell and the gas screens with the zippers on the end. Yes. Yes. Your jeans with the swan.
Kristin Nilsen 37:32
Oh my perfume the Gloria Vanderbilt perfume.
Michelle Newman 37:36
Yeah, yeah, listeners the book is chock full Yeah, top coach the fun that just the most fun pop culture references.
Carolyn Cochrane 37:45
So with you saying that your dad was really the one who said you can't you know, watch any of these TV shows and really kept the a lot of that out of your life. Why were you allowed to watch that? The Hardy Boys? I'm really curious. Why did that make so
Speaker 2 37:59
much for asking? My father loved the Hardy Boys books. And he my my school this private girls school on the Upper East Side didn't stalk the Hardy Boys or Nancy Drew in their library. They were really snooty about it. So my father took us to libraries in Connecticut on the weekends, and I read every single Hardy Boys book. And we talked about you know, what happened at midnight while the clock ticks, these incredible titles. And he was like, and then he was like, oh, but this is a little you know, Poppy, but he loved it and that music dawn?
Speaker 2 38:45
Yes, and Carolyn he thought Shawn Cassidy was a great actor, Sean. Sean Cassidy as my first crush feather
Kristin Nilsen 38:54
in his cap. No. That's awesome. Yes, Shawn,
Speaker 2 39:02
that I have Shawn was actually very gratified by that.
Kristin Nilsen 39:07
I bet. Well, that's a huge compliment. That's just one other. It's just another sign that we're all supposed to be together on this screen.
Unknown Speaker 39:16
We really, really are everyone.
Kristin Nilsen 39:18
I think this daughter is uniquely relevant to our listeners. Because given the statistics, half of our listeners half would be able to relate to your story in a very personal way. And so I think this would make a really great selection for our next zoom book club. So would you be willing to come back and do a live virtual book club with our listeners?
Speaker 2 39:39
Would I be bells on and I'll try to dress in my best I did wear like a kind of poncho sweater
Kristin Nilsen 39:50
is cute. This is great. And I think we should do this sooner rather than later. You can tell that Priscilla is an absolute gas and you will have a good time at this book club. And so let's Do this in the next few weeks and it it would be great if people watched Kramer versus Kramer first. I think that would add so much texture to the discussion. So all of you listening please look for details about a book club with Priscilla about the critic starter in our weekly newsletter and by following our social media posts. Priscilla, I want to kiss you. Thank you so much.
Michelle Newman 40:22
Slumber Party with your party.
Speaker 2 40:25
That was raunchy comedy like stripes are risky business, something like that.
Michelle Newman 40:32
Exactly. And oh my god.
Kristin Nilsen 40:34
Yes, for sure. I'm gonna wear too. I could never keep a tube top. down around my waist. Oh my god, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much. I would love to do it again.
Unknown Speaker 40:55
even tell you how much fun that was.
Kristin Nilsen 41:01
Thank you so much to everybody for listening today. This has been some of the heaviest conversation we've had on the pop culture Preservation Society, but also some of the most enlightening and validating because we as a group experienced the onset of divorce together. And I hope these conversations over the last two weeks helped you feel seen.
Michelle Newman 41:19
And if you'd like to join us for that book club, it'll be taking place the week of March 25 at 7pm Central time on Zoom. Priscilla Gilman has graciously agreed to join us to answer any questions you might have about her book or her experience, and to just be in the presence of fellow society members. And as you guys just heard, she is lovely and so much fun. And we really hope that you guys will get to to meet her. Our book clubs are always a good time. So we hope you'll join us to sign up and to get more information on the exact date. Just go to our website at pop preservationists.com and click on the Events tab. Or you can click the link tree link that's in our Instagram bio. Or for those of you who who are subscribed to our weekly email newsletter, The Weekly Reader all of this info is in there. And if you're not subscribed, why the heck not? It's really easy, just go to our website to subscribe.
Carolyn Cochrane 42:17
As usual, this book club like all of ours are free for Patreon members. And if you're not a member, it's only $10 for you to join us that night. So you have a few weeks still to get the book. And you can find the critic starter wherever you buy your books, including our Amazon storefront pop culture Preservation Society, and you can find a link to our storefront in our Lincoln bio on Instagram, in our Weekly Reader and also on our website.
Michelle Newman 42:48
And today's episode was brought to you by Jen, Susie, Lydia, Diane, Mike, Erica, Lisa, and Nina. These are just some of our wonderful supporters who support the PCPs with their monthly and one time donations. A great big humongous thank you to all of you. And if you'd like to join our team of supporters, visit our website once again at pop preservationists.com Man you can find a lot of stuff at our website, your
Carolyn Cochrane 43:17
one stop shop.
Kristin Nilsen 43:19
In the meantime, let's raise our glasses for a toast courtesy of the cast of Three's Company to good times to Happy
Carolyn Cochrane 43:25
Days to Little House on the Prairie.
Kristin Nilsen 43:31
The information opinions and comments expressed in the pop culture Preservation Society podcast belongs solely to Carolyn the crush ecologist and hello Newman, and are in no way representative of our employers or affiliates. And though we truly believe we are always right, there's always a first time the PCPs has written produced and recorded in Minneapolis, Minnesota Home of the fictional w j m studios and our beloved Mary Richards nananana who keep on truckin and may the Force be with you
Transcribed by https://otter.ai