Free To Be…You and Me: An Ageless Anthem

Kristin Nilsen 0:00

Welcome back everybody to our encore presentation of our episode about free to be you and me. This is an episode that we've actually encored more than once, but there's a reason that we have to do it again. We are going to be as everybody knows. You've heard this over and over again, but we just need to get people ready for our visit to the free to be you and me sing along at the Eric Carle, Museum of picture book art in Amherst, Massachusetts on April 6. And what we're finding when we do anything with free to be you and me, whether it's our original episode or encouring that episode, or anything in social media, free to be you and me is possibly the biggest rallying cry of people from our generation.

Michelle Newman 0:41

You know, I think I said it in either this, this episode that we're encoring today, or when we encore it before, but we often say we are the big wheel generation, or the Star Wars generation, or the We Are the free to be you and me generation, and so proudly. And I think what you just said Kristen is so true because of all of the types of generations we are, the Pac Man generation, the you know, Sesame Street generation, whatever the free to be, you and me generation is something that all of us feel the most honored and lucky to be, yeah

Carolyn Cochrane 1:20

and truly informed our values and what we thought was important. I mean, that it's in our cells. I mean, this is something that I think we say when we're talking about preserving this stuff, how it formed and informed who we are today. And I think this did it more than I think we even realized, yes,

Kristin Nilsen 1:41

it helped us create our identities, particularly if you were a little girl. Because it was a harder message in the early 70s or anytime, really, to to lift a little girl up and tell her you can be whatever you want to be. You can say to little boys, you can be whatever you want to be, but the boys are like, I know, but little girls, not so much. And so we might have been the very first generation to grow up with that message. Luckily, I think women of today were, would they be like, Well, why would did you even need that message? Well, let's just look at history. But if you look at where we are in history. When this comes out in the early 70s, did our mothers get that message? No. And the first ones, I

Michelle Newman 2:27

sadly, I think Marlo Thomas gets overlooked a lot in like the great, iconic women in history. I think a lot of people think Marlo Thomas, and they think that girl, and while that's certainly a great contribution, and especially, I mean, my goodness, all st Jude's for sure, but I hear Marlo Thomas, and I immediately think, free to be you and me, and I feel like she was such a teacher for all of us. And when listeners you'll hear in this episode, this encore, the origin story of how free to be you and me came about, and it's, it's a tremendous story, and it took a lot of effort and a lot of work, and it just started as this little idea that she had for her niece, and it was her niece, right? Yeah, and, and, and I, and I do think that that that contribution from her to all of us is so long lasting, and I feel like she should get more recognition for that, because that's

Kristin Nilsen 3:24

who we are today, tight, 50 plus years later, she literally created who we are. It is a long, lasting legacy. And by the way, this project that you say that was difficult and arduous was not for it was not something she was doing for profit. Yes, it became a very successful album, but how much of that money went elsewhere to fund other projects? When she started this, it wasn't like, I bet I could make something that'll be huge and then I'll be a billionaire.

Michelle Newman 3:53

It was a passion project. It's a passion and she did it so authentically that it became so great, like we talk about a lot when you do things authentically and when you are true to your your end goal or what you are actively working on, it becomes that much more impactful and important. And that's what it was for her, because she was doing it for her niece, and it was

Carolyn Cochrane 4:14

important for her and a lot of other people too. Because this is a star studded list of actors and performers that are part of this free to be you and me, album and the television show. So it wasn't like she was dragging people into it. People were very excited to lend their voices and their acting chops. And I just feel like people got it then. And Kristen, you spoke to how it empowered girls like us, and we grew up thinking what it wasn't always like this. I'd like to also point out one of my favorite songs on the whole album is a song that's really directed at boys, and it's Rosie Greer, the NFL player, who's huge mind you, who's also a needle pointer. You guys, you've got to love Rosie. For you, but he sings, it's all right to cry. And first of all, try not to cry while you're listening to it. And second of all, what a message that is just one. I wish my dad had gotten growing up. I hope I imparted on my son. But that to me, that song hits me in a lot of different places for a lot of different reasons, and

Kristin Nilsen 5:19

it does for a lot of people, for so many people, that might be the what like like for you, that might be the one song that gets them in the field so hard that they get choked up. And that's because it's meaningful, and because he brought to it such gentility. This giant man brought such gentility. Look at this different way that we can be a man, and I dare to say it's a message that we need even more today than we did back then. Men are needing help. Men are struggling to find what their identity is are. What is the grammatical way to say that? I'm not sure. And somebody's got to be there for them to help them find the most effective way to be that. And Rosie Greer was that for the men that we married, and I my son and I were talking yesterday just about the how we have a mental health crisis in this country, and a lot of it is the mental health of men women have more of a of an ability, of an openness to getting help and seeking therapy. We're still struggling to get men to get help, and this, this whole concept of it's okay to cry is necessary now. It's urgent, right now? Yes. So

Carolyn Cochrane 6:32

go listen to it. People, listeners, go, Listen, go. Listen to this. I

Kristin Nilsen 6:36

am So, needless to say, we're really, really looking forward to our trip to Amherst, Massachusetts, to sit in a group of people who loved this album as much as we did, to shout those words, to sing them as loudly as we can. Carolyn's just dying right now. I mean, I think it will be, I think it'll be a really important moment. It's not just that. It's gonna be fun. I think it's gonna be a really important collective moment for all of us, please enjoy this encore presentation of episode number 55 free to be you and me. This is an independently produced, women owned show. All of our content, editing, distribution and promotion is done by the three people you hear on the podcast each week, and all of it is paid for out of our own pockets, because it's important to us, but now you can help us keep the lights on by making a small contribution to support our efforts for the price of one or two cups of coffee a month. You can help us produce over 40 episodes a year, plus year round content in our weekly newsletter and our social media community. And remember how your mom got a free VHS tape of Peter Paul and Mary when she became a supporter of PBS, you too will get special thank you gifts when you support the PCPs, from blooper reels and after the episode discussions to raw, uncut video footage of our recording sessions, we appreciate your support, and we want to show it by sending these perks your way. You can become a supporter by going to pop preservationist.com and clicking on the Patreon link, or go to our link in bio on Instagram and find the Patreon link in our link tree. And thank you. From the bottom of our bell bottom tarts, I just have to get this out of my system, sad and grumpy down in the Dumpy I say that all the time when Liam is looking bad. I'm like, oh, sad and grumpy down in the Dumpy and then how many people don't say when I asked Mike about free to be you and me, the first thing he says is, it might make you feel better. And we say it all the time, it might make you feel better.

Speaker 1 8:40

Hello there's a song that we're singing. Come on, get happy. Whole lot of love is what we'll be bringing we'll make you happy.

Michelle Newman 8:57

Welcome to the pop culture Preservation Society, the podcast for people born in the big wheel generation who stuck their chewed up juicy fruit in the car doors ashtray.

Carolyn Cochrane 9:07

We believe our Gen X childhoods gave us unforgettable songs, stories, characters and images, and if we don't talk about them, they'll disappear like Marshall will and Holly on a routine expedition,

Kristin Nilsen 9:20

and today we'll be saving the banjo rip that signal the revolution was coming for children in the form of an album called free to be you and me. I'm

Carolyn Cochrane 9:30

Carolyn, I'm Kristen and

Michelle Newman 9:33

I'm Michelle, and we are your pop culture preservationists.

Kristin Nilsen 9:38

This is a very teary episode for me. I just it's one of those lump in your throat. It's, is it the warm ride? I don't know. It's not nipple lightning. It's more. It's more than that.

If a banjo riff could make me cry, it would be. This, oh my god, I'm going to cry right now. These are the opening notes to a Gen X tour de force. 1972 is free to be you and me. It was in every household and every classroom across the nation, and it told us to be who we are, no matter what other people say, including our classmates and our teachers and even our parents. There was the record released in 1972 followed quickly by the book and the prime time TV special that would be re watched in schools in all 50 states in perpetuity.

Carolyn Cochrane 10:34

The TV special, you guys, that is what I remember. I think maybe because I'm a visual learner as well, but so I re watched it a few nights ago in preparation for this episode. And just like a lot of things that we have revisited, I did have that initial feeling of kind of being washed with nostalgia and the warmth and all of that. And I just was back at my in my living room watching TV, and then this part came on that had Dustin Hoffman reading, and you guys, it was like, I was sucked back into this vortex, like time machine. You know those scenes in TV where you're like, they're showing somebody going back in time and kind of spinning like a funnel, and the person falling down a giant Yes, that is what happened to me. I love

Kristin Nilsen 11:23

that. Oh, my God. And I had some feelings about that part too. So I'm there with you, Carolyn, there's no doubt at all that this record and the TV special was well loved. Every word of it, every note I actually I could not I have a little story for you to just back that up. I was surprised to go to my record collection when I was prepping for this episode and find that I didn't have free to be you and me. So apparently I don't have my copy anymore. And luckily, I found a copy at my local record store, which is really unusual, because I never see it in record stores. And so I sent this to the guy. I was like, I can't believe you have it exactly when I need it, you can never find this. And he said, Actually, I get free to be I get free to be you and me all the time, but it's always so scratched up, so worn, the cover is so torn. He said, That album is so well loved. I can never put him on the floor. Oh, wow.

Michelle Newman 12:19

My copy came from a vintage store. And, I mean, I think I audibly gasped when I saw it, when I was flipping through the albums, and it was like $3 and it is, you know, the usually the three sides of an album cover are intact, and you can slide the album out. It's hanging on by, like a corner. It's been loved. I mean, I would love to know the stories.

Kristin Nilsen 12:40

We have a comment from Gail on on Instagram. She always sums things up so nicely, and she tends to sum up what all of our followers are saying. This is what people were saying on Instagram. She said, if we were well behaved during music class, our teacher would reward us by playing this record on the special Hi Fi stereo. The second the banjo intro filled the room. We were mesmerized. We didn't understand all of the words, but we felt them. I think that's just so astute. We were happy and goofy as we sang, danced and laughed. We were free. Nearly 50 years later, I get the same feeling when I hear that banjo intro.

Michelle Newman 13:20

That's so true, and a lot

Kristin Nilsen 13:22

of people feel the same way.

Michelle Newman 13:26

They do absolutely and it's amazing to think of how this whole phenomenon that has just lasted for decades came to be, because it's really just a beautifully simple story. Marlo Thomas says it like this, honestly, I was just trying to do something for a little girl, because in 1971 Marlowe's niece Dion, was in nursery school, and Aunt Marlo loved reading her bedtime stories, but she quickly realized how outdated all of Dion's story books were. They were still the same old stories of princes rescuing princesses or just the formulated happy ending. And she says there was nothing available that would allow Dion to dream her own dreams. And so when she complained to her sister about it, Dion's mom, her sister, told Marlo that that was all she could find. And then she said the words to Marlo Thomas that would change history. Why don't you try? And you guys, as we know, Marlo Thomas created something she decided she wanted to try to do it by Dion's next birthday. And you guys, what? What a birthday present she created, not just for Dion, but a gift for all of us, and not just our generation, but all the generations that have fallen came after.

Kristin Nilsen 14:47

She recalls that when she went to look for some different books for Dion, she literally found a book. I can't even stand this. She literally found a book called I'm glad I'm a boy. I'm glad I'm. A girl, and on one side of the page, it would say boys are doctors, and on the other side it would say girls are nurses. And then you turn the page, it would say boys are pilots, and the other side said girls are stewardesses. That got published. Somebody wrote that and published it.

Carolyn Cochrane 15:17

That is crazy. And can we just right now say Marlo Thomas is effing wonderful. I mean, that woman so ahead of her time. When you realize, when you go back to that girl and who she portrayed in that show, and really stuck to her guns with how she wanted that character played, and she the network wanted her to get married at the end, and that's like Donald Hollinger, and that was supposed to be what would give a happy ending to all females. And she was like, No, I am not going to do that. And stuck to her guns. And the final episode had her bringing him to a woman's lib meeting.

Kristin Nilsen 15:59

Oh my god. And I'm watching that show when I'm like, three and four years old. I'm getting these lessons when I'm three and four years old.

Michelle Newman 16:06

Yeah, she was at Atlanta. She was literally,

Kristin Nilsen 16:09

yeah, she literally was because she said,

Michelle Newman 16:12

You go do your own thing. I'm gonna come to this meeting with me. We'll decide if we want to get married later, right? Maybe we didn't. Maybe we love

Kristin Nilsen 16:18

that. I mean, when you were watching that girl? Were you at all disappointed that she wasn't married? I wasn't. No, I wanted to be her. Yeah, I

Michelle Newman 16:28

don't. I would have been watching that way too young, and probably it reruns that that wasn't anything that was that was sticking with, but maybe it did, I don't know.

Kristin Nilsen 16:36

Well, that's the thing, if you're that little, you don't exactly know what you're absorbing. Michelle, I know. And so really, it's about looking at who you are today and seeing if that message stuck. Now, I got

Michelle Newman 16:45

married when I was 24 so

Kristin Nilsen 16:50

maybe not. But anyway, did you take Brian to a women's lib meeting? That would be the true test. So then when Terry her sister, says, Why don't you do it? Then they are off to the races, because Marlo Thomas had a talent for gathering important and recognizable people together, including, this is not even a complete list. You guys. Alan Alda, Diana, Ross Shirley, Jones, Carolyn Channing, Carl Reiner, Mel Brooks, Shel Silverstein, Dustin Hoffman, Kris, Kristofferson, Rita Coolidge, Roberta Flack, Michael Jackson and so many more.

Carolyn Cochrane 17:24

And there are also Kristen, a few names that our listeners may not know but they should, and that includes Bruce and Carolyn Hart. So if you happened to listen to our podcast about the TV movie sooner or later, starring Rex Smith. You might remember that Bruce and Carolyn Hart wrote and directed it, but before they dabbled in teen romance, they were a fixture in Educational Television. They won an Emmy for their work on Sesame Street. And you guys, if it wasn't for them, free to be you and me, would not have existed as we know it. Carolyn Hart actually produced the project. Her husband, Bruce Hart, along with Steven Lawrence, wrote the theme song for you to be you and me, along with sisters and brothers, and they produced the music for the album. It was, they're, they're an amazing couple. They go on to do they're a powerful and it's

Michelle Newman 18:22

so weird how they go on to do sooner or later. Oh, it's

Kristin Nilsen 18:25

not weird. It's a big disconnect. And yet, we were all there for the same people. We were all there for it well. And in

Michelle Newman 18:32

our episode, we talk about that, that they actually had their finger on the pulse of this growing generation like and then these kids grow up, and then now what do they want to hear about, or what do they want to you know, that's

Kristin Nilsen 18:42

a we want to look at. Right? Exactly, right. I also want to add to this list, Mary Rogers. I know Mary Rogers is the author of one of my favorite books, which is freaky Friday. And then, reasonably, I know Freaky Friday, I love that book so much. Freaking

Michelle Newman 18:59

love it.

Kristin Nilsen 19:04

And then recently, you may remember that Stephen Sondheim died rip and so, like so many people, I watched the HBO special on Stephen Sondheim, and then they keep talking about Mary Rogers as being one of his colleagues, and they're referring to her as a composer. And I'm like, wait a minute, the author of Freaky Friday is a composer. What is it? Well, of course, she's a composer. Because you guys, I can't even believe I didn't know this. Mary Rogers's dad. No, is Richard Rogers of Rogers and Hammerstein? Wow. Carousel. No, that would be amazing. No, Rogers and Hammerstein. Oh, my goodness. So she is, yes, a children's author and a composer, and she did writing and music for free to be you and me. Wow,

Carolyn Cochrane 19:53

that makes me so happy. I'm sorry that Richard Rogers, you know, his legacy, kind. Carried on and his daughter, and obviously she left an impression on us. Wow, yeah.

Kristin Nilsen 20:05

And truthfully, how many female composers Do you know? Yeah. I mean, can you name, like, even think of Broadway composers? Can you name any female Broadway composers? And there are, there. Are there out there? Listeners, we know you're like, how about this person and this person and this person. The point is, we're trying to get a point across listeners. Right? At that point in time, could you say anyone except like Rogers and Hammerstein or Rogers and Hart or Cole Porter, or any of those people? Or even now we have Andrew Lloyd Webber, right? We've got all of these men, Stephen Sondheim. Stephen Sondheim gets a special. Mary Rogers doesn't have a special so she was breaking ground, and this was an appropriate place for her to be doing work. I'm free to be you and me. I think one thing

Michelle Newman 20:45

that I'm just floored by is that this is Marlo Thomas's circle of friends, like these people she happens to have, like in her little Rolodex that she's just gonna call on up when she's like, I think I need to make an album, and I want to come up with some things for my niece and for all the children out there, I'm just going to call up a few friends you like, and then it's all those people and because let's not also forget, another one of her friends is Gloria Steinem. So Gloria Steinem was one of the founders of MS magazine, and what Marlo wanted to do aligned perfectly with their feature in MS magazine. That Leti cotton, is it? Pog ribbon, I think it's program created, and that the feature that she had created was called stories for free children, and in these stories, they addressed the corrosive role of sexual stereotypes and parenting and education, because, in their view, children needed to be happy, healthy and well cared for in order for women to make headway in this world, like, if they can be free to be then so can their moms. Like, even today, when a child is sick, it's probably a woman who was taken out of the workforce, even if it's only for a day, but over the length of a childhood, that can mean lower pay, lower advancement, and a lot less free to be right and Letty and Marlo through this project, and through this introduction from Gloria Steinem, became soul mates. That's truly what Marlo says they were. They were soul mates through their work on this album and their shared mission, yeah.

Kristin Nilsen 22:11

And then Dionne gets her birthday present, yeah. So happy birthday. Yeah. I know Seriously, she got a birthday present, essentially from Gloria Steinem. So Marlo Thomas gathered all these people, and she posed a simple question to them all. They're all gathered in her living room, and she says to them, what lessons or stories do you feel were missing from your childhood? And I think this is why the record doesn't feel preachy, right? They were not trying to teach us what they thought we needed to know they were actually trying to go back and nurture themselves and see the things that they were missing. So they're looking at their child selves, and I think that's kind of what we're doing here. We acknowledge that we have children living inside of us. They're still there. They still exist with us today, even though we've grown up. So Alan Alda says he was the artsy kid in school, and that made him a target. And you know, all the all the boys are outside playing football, and he's inside writing musical comedy. And so that made him, you know, he got beat up a few times after school. And so he says that working on free to be you and me allowed him to address really, the inequalities that he felt as a kid, he saw that as an equality issue. He was not equal to the football players.

Michelle Newman 23:24

We all are still grappling with issues like that, that we dealt with and but you know, Alan Alda is saying, Gosh, I didn't have anything like this, like this album or these stories to help me.

Kristin Nilsen 23:38

And I think that we hear you, Alan. Yeah, we hear you Alan. But that spirit of it made it something that we listened to, and it imprinted on us in a way that is different. If they had tried to, quote, unquote, teach us something exactly that would have been entirely

Carolyn Cochrane 23:53

I bet when our parents listened to it along with us, they probably were thinking, I wish I had had this message when I was a child too. I'm glad my own child is having get to hear that.

Kristin Nilsen 24:05

So after a long time of looking at pitching to record companies, they finally secured a record deal with a small label called Bell records after it was turned down by all of the big companies who just they couldn't get past the liberal vibe, the feminist hippie vibe, and in fact, one well known record executive that they do not name, but I assume that we would know this name. Should they reveal it said, and I quote, what would I want with a record produced by a bunch of dykes? Well, what I'm like? Well, sell it and get you know, sell it to many, many, many, many people. And not to mention the fact that, you know, this is a word that is hurled at women because they're not married. Somebody who's not married is automatically a dyke. And most of the women who were working on this project were married to men and had children, and that was the reason that they were working on it. Now Marlo to. Thomas famously was not married, and so in their eyes, that makes her a dyke. And you guys, I have been called the dyke more than once in my lifetime, and it's always by men, and it's usually when they when I've done something that appears to them to be out of bounds. I

Michelle Newman 25:17

don't understand why. Well, this is just something I'll never understand why people think that's a insult. Yeah, you know, isn't that interesting? Why is that the put down? It's so funny to me that some people think that that is something that's going to bother you. I know. I guess it does bother some people. And then, yeah,

Kristin Nilsen 25:37

they think that that tells you about who they are, because they think it would bother you, because it means you are not feminine, as if that is the worst insult, and by you telling me that I'm not feminine, you're just stating a fact about myself that I already know. Thank you. Thanks. Next. So it was an instant hit, both critically and commercially, which was a huge surprise to all the big record companies that turned them down, even at Bell records, the company that did take them on, they said, Well, you know, records like this, they tend to sell about 15,000 and so that, I think, was their original pressing of it. Well, it went gold immediately, gold being 500,000 Wow. It went platinum within two years, which is 1 million records. It eventually went diamond, which is 10 million records. And still to this day, it is in the top 100 best selling albums of all

Michelle Newman 26:37

time. Wow. That is just shows you how much and it shows you how much it was needed. Yeah,

Carolyn Cochrane 26:43

absolutely and now. But before we get to the album you guys, I would just like to give you a little information about the TV special. Many of us saw that either in school or at home when it first aired on March 11, 1974 and again, I recently went back and watched the video free to be you and me, and it was the complete from beginning to end, including commercials. And I just want to say so sad about the commercials, because they really struck me and stuck with me. The two that, well, three, I guess, but two of them were for Crest toothpaste. And what I thought was interesting is there's not a female in the as the parenting figure. It is both

Kristin Nilsen 27:29

times it's a dad. That's it's like bedtime stories and time to brush teeth

Carolyn Cochrane 27:33

and encouraging their children to brush their teeth, and why it's important. And also, I realize one of the messages they were sending in this commercial was we didn't have fluoride back then. I'm so glad I can give you this product now that provides you with something I didn't have. Hmm, what else might I not have had when I was younger that I can now provide you? Could it be this TV special? And so I thought that was really interesting. And then there was another one, and I'm gonna now forget what it was for, but there's a mom, and she's a school teacher. She's a kindergarten teacher, and so she's working outside the home, and it's how she's balancing that, but she's all like they're showing her how she's at work and doing her thing. And then she comes home and she and the dad, I can't remember it was that's for Tang. Oh yeah, it was for Tang Tanner all evening breakfast, that's right, thank you. Then the next morning, and she's saying why that's important, but I like the fact that they showed her working outside of the home, yeah, and that this quick breakfast was good for their family because they could, she

Michelle Newman 28:37

can provide a delicious, healthy, nutritious drink

Kristin Nilsen 28:40

like tan for that, with national flavoring, a day

Michelle Newman 28:42

worth of vitamin

Carolyn Cochrane 28:45

C. Never had Tang growing up. Oh, I was

Kristin Nilsen 28:47

not. I don't know why. I was never going to make it to space. I do think it's interesting though. Carolyn, this is all baby steps, right? It's all baby steps. So those commercials are quite revolutionary. But notice they made her a kindergarten teacher, because that's an acceptable profession for women,

Carolyn Cochrane 29:04

right? And they do talk about that a little bit in the production of the TV show, especially some things that they could have maybe done a little bit more progressively. And they even discussed it among the producers and the writers, but it was a little bit too much for the time, like they didn't want to turn anyone off. So let's do these baby steps, even though they knew in the moment, like, yes, maybe she could have been a high school teacher, or she could have been a number of things. Didn't have to be a teacher, but we're going to just kind of baby step into that waiting pool, part of the pool, until we go into the seat. Sell it right? Yes, especially to our friends at the network, because it didn't go over very well with the networks. When Marlo went to promote this, ABC was who she was working with. And after they produced this special and showed it to ABC, they had an issue with a few. Of the parts of the show, one being William Stahl, they did not like that. They didn't like the song. The executives asked her to cut that. They said, you're going to make every kid in America a sissy. And that's not the word they used. She said, Oh yes. Oh, really another

Michelle Newman 30:17

C word, oh, my ssy word,

Carolyn Cochrane 30:19

Oh, I thought it was an F word. It might. She didn't say what the word was, but she just let us know that I'm guessing it might be the F word

Kristin Nilsen 30:30

I thought it was, but I'm only Yeah, I'm only assuming, right.

Carolyn Cochrane 30:33

So, yeah, that's just us guessing. And then they all, wow. They also requested that she take out the footage where she and Harry Belafonte are singing, parents are people, and there's a scene within that that they're both pushing baby buggies. And the networks thought that that made it look like Marlo Thomas and Harry Belafonte were married, and Marlo was like, well, so who cares? And they said, Well, that's never going to fly in the south to have a white woman married to a black man. And she at that point, she was just like, well, first of all, it doesn't look like we're married. We're each pushing these buggies. And second of all, who cares? And but Harry actually wasn't surprised. I mean, yeah, he just thought, Marla, this is kind of how it is, but she was not going to stand for it. And she said, You know what? ABC, if you're not going to let me leave this stuff in, I'm taking my toys, I'm leaving the playground, I'm going to CBS. And that was enough for them to say, all right, it was worth it in the end, because it was watched by 1.2 million households, and it beat out Gun Smoke on CBS. And in May, it won an Emmy and it was awarded to Carolyn Hart and Marlo Thomas by Mr. And Mrs. Mark Spitz. Wow,

Kristin Nilsen 31:57

that is cool. Okay, so the record I just want to talk about. I just want to talk about the album cover for a minute. I have it right here. I'm doing some show and tell you guys have your own copy. My copy belonged to Jill Schmidt. She wrote her name in beautiful cursive on the front. And I want to show you some things that maybe you didn't notice when you were kids. We all remember the puffy letters and the funny people that are poking out of the letters. But I want to point out something important. At the bottom of the album cover, you can see the logo for MS magazine. It's the capital M, the lowercase s and the period after it. And I recognize this logo as a kid, I didn't know what it was exactly. I knew it had something to do with my mom. I knew it had something to do with the women, but I wasn't sure. And above that, it says in tiny little letters, portions of the proceeds from this album will go to the MS Foundation For Women. This record is designed for use on stereo or mono oral equipment by children of all ages, shapes, sizes, colors and sexes.

Michelle Newman 33:02

You go, I love that isn't

Kristin Nilsen 33:04

that cool. We don't even know that was there, but it was seeping into our brains anyway. So then when you flip the record over, there is a beautiful letter from Marlo Thomas saying happy birthday Dion, which just warms my heart. It's in her handwriting, it's so cute. And then there are also messages from the editor at ms and from Gloria Steinem. And she explains that the money from this record will fund educational projects aimed at improving the skills, conditions and status of women and children. And it really did much more than they expected, because they thought they were only going to sell 15,000 copies, especially in the areas of domestic violence, health care and Job and Job advancement for women. These are not things that we knew when we were children. We had no idea that this is us listening to this red record was contributing to those things. She also says all together. This is a project born of love. Our only regret is that this record and the change it reflects weren't part of our own childhoods, but then the children we once were are inside us still. It's almost like a love letter to themselves. So that's the album cover. We're going to talk about some of the tracks now, and people have a lot of things to say and a lot of feelings. And so we're just going to jump right in the first the first song on the first side is, of course, the theme song Free to be you and me, which is performed by the new seekers. And it's written by Stephen Lawrence and Bruce Hart that Carolyn spoke of before the new seekers were a new iteration of the seekers. And if your parents were Fauci you probably had some other records in your house. They had a hit with Georgie girl. That was one of my mom's favorite songs. Oh, yeah. Sorry, I know I love that song, too. I thought of it in a million years the new seekers. So that's the seekers. So the new seekers are most famous for one song they recorded an adaptation. I. Of the Coca Cola jingle I'd like to buy the world a Coke, and they reworked it as I'd like to teach the world to sing,

which I thought it went the other way. I thought I'd like to buy the world a coke came from the song. I'd like to teach the world to sing, but it's the opposite. I had never

Michelle Newman 35:27

really thought about it. But yeah, I think if that was a trivia question, I would agree with that what you just said, then it was the the other way. Yeah. I

Kristin Nilsen 35:35

mean, can't you just, I can vision. I can envision that commercial clearly. Yeah, all of those, I wanted to be all those women with, like the flowers in their hair bands and stuff, oh, that

Michelle Newman 35:45

gives me a lump in my coat that, you know what it is also it's, it's their voices, the the new seekers, because it gives me a lump in my throat that that song, in much the same way for you to be you and me does absolutely,

Kristin Nilsen 35:57

yeah, that is that. It's a really interesting coincidence. So that theme song is inspired by this land is your land, which you can hear, I know

Michelle Newman 36:07

is that song, you guys. I know there's a specific memory wail on that song and music, because that one and you're a Grand Old Flag. Give them to me. I'll show it

Kristin Nilsen 36:16

still go together for me. But okay, all right, I did too. I love this land is your land. And that is such a folky 70s hit, right? And you can hear it in the lyric where they say, take my hand, come along, and we'll run to a land where the rivers run free, to a land through the green country, to a land to a shining sea, to a land where the horses run free, to a land where the children are free

Michelle Newman 36:48

and they just run free and free,

Kristin Nilsen 36:49

yeah, they did. No, okay, they did. And then they did free. There's a lot of free they have places, because it's called free to be you and me, so they can put it

Michelle Newman 36:57

anywhere they can't Sure. Carolyn's right. Carolyn's raising.

Carolyn Cochrane 37:00

I have a really interesting fact about the lyrics. So last June, in celebration of the 50th anniversary of free to be you and me, stars in the House did an episode devoted to free to be you and me. And stars in the house is a program. It's hosted by Seth rudetsky and James Wesley, and they invited Marlo to come on and talk a little bit about the show. And then they debuted two new covers of two of the songs from the album, one of those being free to beat you and me by Sara Bareilles, so when she was asked to do the cover, she jumped at the chance. Mind you, they had been asked several times over the years to do for other bands to cover the songs, and they never granted permission. So this was the first time in 50 years they granted permission, and they wanted to rewrite a little bit of free to be you and me this title song, because the line where it said the original lyrics, every boy in this land grows to be his own man in this land, every girl grows to be her own woman. Every boy in this

Unknown Speaker 38:13

land grows to be his own

Unknown Speaker 38:17

man. In this land, every girl grows to be

Kristin Nilsen 38:24

and every girl to be her own woman. That's my favorite line, you guys. He just belts it out. It's

Carolyn Cochrane 38:29

a great line, and it was great in 719, 72 but as Marla pointed out, things have changed, and if you're a boy, you might not, you might not grow up to be a man. So she went to one of her writer friends who came up with a couple of different versions, and this, what I'm going to read to you right now is what they came up with every child in the land. May you all understand that you're proud and you're strong and you are right where you belong. Take my hand. Come with me where the people are free. Come with me. Take my hand, and we'll run.

Unknown Speaker 39:09

Take my hand. Come with me, where the people

Unknown Speaker 39:19

are free. Come with people.

Carolyn Cochrane 39:27

I just loved how Marlo addressed the fact that this song, it's a living thing, and this is a truth, and as we learn more and grow more, we can it's okay to change these words to this iconic song to reflect more of where we are today so well.

Kristin Nilsen 39:44

And I think the important part of the of the original line is not every boy in this land grows to be his own man, or every girl, every girl in this land grows to be her own woman. I just love it when he belts it out. It's not that's not the point. The point is his own man, her own woman, that you get to make your choices about where you go, right? And

Carolyn Cochrane 40:07

that's the message that we got, and that's exactly what we needed at the time. And I think now we can say you're going to be your own person,

Kristin Nilsen 40:16

you're going to be your own person. That is exactly right. And I still to this day, the song almost locks me down. I have such an emotional response to it, and especially after that part where they say, where they do the whole litany of to a land where the rivers run free, to a land through the green country, and then they bring it to a close, and you think it's over, and it's silent, but then, oh my God, and then it's time to dance right?

That's when you just that's when you got to dance it out. Dance it out, yes,

Carolyn Cochrane 41:00

and I also want to say there is just not enough flutes. There aren't enough flutes in music these days. I love Yeah, we're a good flute and these songs have some good flute music, and we're missing that in today's

Kristin Nilsen 41:14

I agree. You know what else we're missing in today's music? The another reason I love this, last part of the song is when they go, ba, ba, ba. I love babas. In any song you gave me a Baba and I am all in, all righty, I need my Baba.

Michelle Newman 41:37

Okay, so then we're still now, in case you've forgotten, we're talking about the tracks, so my tracks on the album. So then we go into boy meets girl, and this is probably embarrassed to say, but other than free to be you and me, this might be one of the only ones that I have a clear memory of. And so this is the song. It's not a song, actually, as much as it's just a little performance. It's written by Carl Reiner and Peter Stone. It was performed by Mel Brooks and Marlo Thomas. And they're puppet babies, but I have a very strong memory of the image of this, the visual of this, so I may must have seen it in school or at home. They're just puppet babies, but just, it's just their heads, and they do look like old men, actually. And it was inspired, actually, by the 2000 year old man sketches Mel Brooks, is Carl Reiner? By I thought that was Mel Brooks's 2000 Well,

Kristin Nilsen 42:32

it is Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks, yeah, so Carl Reiner wrote this, I assume, yes. And so

Michelle Newman 42:37

the premise is simple, a baby boy and a baby girl are in the hospital nursery, and they're trying to find out what their gender roles are by discussing their appearances, their behaviors and career ambitions. And it's just totally a blast on stereotypes like Mel Brooks's baby says, cute, feet, small, dainty, yeah, yeah, I'm a girl. That's it. Girl time. And then Brooks tells Brooks's baby tells Thomas that she's a boy because she's bald, and all boys are bald. And then he asks her what she wants to be when she grows up. What do you

Speaker 2 43:07

want to be when you grow up? A fireman. What did I tell you? How about you a cocktail waitress? Does that prove anything to you?

Kristin Nilsen 43:16

Cocktail waitress? A cocktail

Michelle Newman 43:17

waitress. She's Yes, she's a boy and he's a girl. Then the nurse, and then after that, the nurse comes in to change their diapers, and they get a look down there, and basically, they're blown away. Well, you know, I'm a boy, you're a girl. And I read something that said women, women in gender studies departments at every university should make this mandatory viewing. I

Kristin Nilsen 43:41

think that the number, the most memorable line from that whole thing is something that is said in our house regularly, and Tracy on Facebook brought it up too. So it makes me think everybody says this. What Tracy on Facebook says is, whenever anyone says the word bald, I automatically say bald, bald, bald, bald is a ping pong ball. And it's the same thing in my house,

Speaker 2 44:04

old ball. Paul your bald as a ping pong ball. Okay, the

Kristin Nilsen 44:08

next song on the on the album is when we grow up, performed by Diana Ross and it was surprising to me on social media, this was the clear favorite. I did not expect that it was the definite majority, and most of them mentioned Diana Ross, which, so that means they're referring to the record, because on the TV show, it was performed by Roberta Flack and Michael Jackson, Diana Ross apparently did this song in just two takes. And I think one reason it's, I think one reason it's people's favorite, is because you can hear the maternal feelings in her voice. And honestly, I can't, I can't even sing it like I wanted to tell you my favorite lyric. And so I have it typed out. I have it checked out here, and I don't even know if I can read it to you, so we're gonna have to play a clip. And then I have typed written on my on my nose, right now, it says I'm crying, right. Now just typing these words, so I'm gonna try and read them. Well, I don't care. Oh, my god no, I don't care. I'll tell you now, okay, I don't care if I'm pretty at all, and I don't care if I never wait and shit over again. Well, I don't care if I'm pretty at all, and I don't care if I never get

Unknown Speaker 45:36

tall at all. I

Kristin Nilsen 45:39

love that song. Oh, good. I hope Carolyn's crying too. Well,

Carolyn Cochrane 45:43

I'm just gonna add little makers Carolyn moment that might make you laugh. But because I texted this to you guys the other day, because my memory is mostly the TV show, I have been listening to the soundtrack in the album, and I just assumed that it was Michael Jackson and Diana Ross singing on the album. So I texted to you guys, I cannot tell the difference between Michael Jackson Diana Ross's voice the song. Well, now I know it's because Michael Jackson doesn't sing on the album. He's only sings on these,

Michelle Newman 46:15

only in the show. So funny. So when you texted that, I didn't realize you didn't know that. I thought you were just like you actually, that's hilarious.

Carolyn Cochrane 46:24

I just watched the the TV special. Oh,

Kristin Nilsen 46:26

I'm just putting that together now too. I thought you were making a joke. You're listening to Diana Ross going, Hey, I can't even tell the

Michelle Newman 46:34

difference. You thinking it's a duet by Diana Jackson, and it's really just, we're all up to speed. Yes, well, and the Kristen, sorry, go ahead. I'll Amelia Bedelia, right now. Yeah, trying

Kristin Nilsen 46:47

to figure the the sad irony that has been pointed out by quite a few people on social media is that Michael Jackson, who was adorable in this piece on the TV show, eventually would bear absolutely no resemblance to the boy who's in the video. And so he didn't feel at all like he couldn't change at all. He changed himself extremely and he's unrecognizable. And when I look at that little boy, you guys, and he's not a little boy, he's a teenager, oh my god. He's beautiful. He's so beautiful, and it just my heart is just

Unknown Speaker 47:27

broken. We don't have to change at all.

Kristin Nilsen 47:32

Okay, next we have parents. Are people, which is performed by Harry, Belafonte and Marlo Thomas, mommy's all people, people

Speaker 3 47:41

with children. When mommies were little, and this is the one

Kristin Nilsen 47:47

that Carolyn talked about, where they're pushing the buggy side by side in the park, and it describes all the things that parents can do. It's written by Carolyn Hall, and it's emphasizing kind of the role reversal, that mommies don't just do baby and children things. And daddies don't just go to the office and play baseball. They can cross. They can do all these different things. And so she they say things like, some mommies are ranchers or poetry makers or doctors or teachers or cleaners or bakers. And it was informed by Carolyn's own children when she was writing this song, her 10 year old boy is looking over her shoulder, and he sees what she's writing, and he says, that's wrong, Mom, that's wrong. Mommies can't be doctors. They're the nurses. And she's like, What are you talking about? She's Yes, yeah. And to add insult to injury, this boy's pediatrician was a woman, huh?

Michelle Newman 48:38

So she's aware, because

Carolyn Cochrane 48:40

he's getting it everywhere in that book, it's Marlo Thomas, right? Yeah,

Michelle Newman 48:45

that's everything interesting, though, because he's getting at the the opposite in really important places. But he's still not saying that. That's still not that. And

Kristin Nilsen 48:54

her daughter, too, did not like the line where she says mommies are women, women with children, because she wanted it to say ladies, because that was nicer. And Carolyn Hall says this is how she became radicalized, because just like you said, they she was doing these important things in the home. She was a single mother working outside of the home to provide for her children, who had a female pediatrician, and still they had these attitudes, these messages were taking hold, despite what she was teaching in her home, and she said she became a woman on a mission after that point.

Carolyn Cochrane 49:31

I don't blame her. That is amazing that they could have those real life examples right in front of them, but it's society, and you know, probably what they see on TV and read in books like that book, you said, and in schools that were just telling them the opposite, and that's what they were absorbing.

Kristin Nilsen 49:52

So she also, Carolyn Hall, this is kind of sweet, actually. She said she made this a very simple melody. It's a lovely song, but if you look. Listen to it. The melody is super simple. And she did this because Marlo Thomas was not a singer, and she was super concerned. Marlo Thomas was about this, and she worked really hard with a vocal coach to be ready to do this album. And if you think about it, her voice is the one that we think about on this album. She's on almost all of the tracks, and she's not a singer for her to take that on. How ballsy is that?

Carolyn Cochrane 50:23

I just after listening and watching again, I was dumbfounded by how talented Marlo Thomas is. I mean, there's the singing part, yeah, but the voices, when you go back and listen to some of the spoken word parts, and you're like, she had all of the voices, but yet, there are four different characters or something in the part, and they're all read by Marlo Thomas, like ladies first, isn't

Kristin Nilsen 50:45

that voice just imprinted on your soul? Yes, whether it's the singing or the stories, that voice that she was so concerned about is literally imprinted on my heart. So 87 ragged Tiger, our friend Shane, known as 87 ragged tiger on on Instagram said this, and I think a lot of you would say the same thing. He said, I still say ladies first, ladies first, just like Marlo Thomas did. And what do you mean? There are not enough mangoes to go around. You can just hear her voice, right? Or her Yeah. So the story is that, of course, this little girl says, ladies first, and she ends up getting eaten by the Tigers first, because she insists on ladies first, ladies first.

Carolyn Cochrane 51:27

Well, a couple things. One, currently now realizing Marlo Thomas was all the voices. She was even the tiger voices, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm again, she is just a talented woman, and I love those little kind of messages at the end, yeah, the subversive messages like, Oh, she got what she deserved. You don't have to show us the Tigers eating, you know, eating or whatever, but we know what happens to her. Yeah, and yeah. That's just, I love those. I feel like smart when I figure him out when

Kristin Nilsen 52:03

you're 56 that was

Carolyn Cochrane 52:04

what was kind of fun. Oh, that's

Kristin Nilsen 52:07

good. I'm glad. Okay, the next one on the album is called Dudley Pippen and the principal, and it comes from a picture book written in 1965 so Dudley Pippen is about a boy who's reprimanded by his teacher, and he begins to cry and he's very ashamed, but the principal says, well done. You did that very well. But only sissies

Speaker 4 52:27

cry. A sissy is somebody who doesn't cry because he's afraid people will call him a sissy if he does cry,

Kristin Nilsen 52:37

and then he inexplicably pulls out a flute. I don't exactly know why this part of the story goes this way. He pulls 70s. Let's just it was so psychedelic. Yeah, it's so psychedelic. And he starts playing his flute music. But it totally works. It's very mesmerizing. And then it smoothly and quite appropriately leads into the next song, which is,

Speaker 5 53:00

it's alright to cry. Crying gets the sad out of you. It's alright

Carolyn Cochrane 53:10

cry. Oh, you guys, it's alright to cry. And lots of feelings about this song so I think I've shared before that I felt, since my dad didn't have any sons that I kind of needed to know about sports, and I just always acted interested, and I think I was, but I knew who Rosie Greer was ahead of time. So it was exciting to me that this thing that my that I knew from my dad, was on this record and on this TV show, and that we listened to it together, and we watched it together, and we had the conversation that it's all right to cry. And I will say to this day that my dad was very he was a very emotional man, and he he did cry, but I think that some of the things he struggled with in life were were that he was told he shouldn't cry, like from his mother and all of that. So when we now as an adult, and I think sitting and listening, listening to that song together, was again being he was being soothed. That child in him was being soothed by this NFL football player. And, yeah, wow, yeah. And as an adult now, I think, God, that was really he needed that. He needed that probably more than I did, because I saw him cry. And, I mean, it was still, I guess I noticed it when dad cried, but I just, I don't know, it impacts me in even a different way. Now, it was then that it was this cool thing, because we knew this, I knew this football player was and we could bond over that, but now I think it just it really touched him. So I love that. Sounds amazing.

Kristin Nilsen 54:48

Carolyn,

Michelle Newman 54:50

and let's not forget that. I mean, these are adults that, these are adults that are coming up with these songs and these ideas because and one of the early gatherings, and Marlo Thomas's. New York apartment. And you guys, can you just imagine being a fly on the wall? And one of those really heavy notes, right? Herb gardener said, I'd like to have heard that it wasn't a sissy thing for a boy to show his feelings. So as a grown man, sort of like your dad, he's things he's saying, This is what I wish I would have had. And then they create this song that's comforting the little boy inside of him that always felt bad for crying.

Kristin Nilsen 55:25

And I have to clarify that you said herb gardener, not her gardener, because I was like, her was at the meeting, Herb gardener, Herb gardener, which was actually her boyfriend at the time. Oh, yeah. But isn't that interesting that he literally said those words out loud, and then they're like, Okay, so we need a song about crying. Who should we get it? How about an NFL football player to do it? And then, did you hear this? Carolyn? Oh, yeah, yeah, I know about the origins of those lyrics. I don't know that I did. Okay, so the song is written by Carolyn Hall again, whose children had the female pediatrician and thought that women couldn't be doctors, so she went to her kids class, and she asked them about crying. What? Tell me about crying? Tell me about your feelings. And they your and they literally said, crying gets the sad out of you. And they said, it's like raindrops from your eyes. And those become the lyrics of the song, and those are, again, our lyrics that get imprinted upon us. Crying gets the sad out of you, right? We know it.

Unknown Speaker 56:33

It's gonna make you feel better.

Kristin Nilsen 56:36

I just have to get this out of my system, sad and grumpy down in the Dumpy. I say that all the time when Liam is looking bad, I'm like, oh, sad and grumpy down in the Dumpy. And then how many people don't say when I asked Mike about free to be you and me, the first thing he says is, it might make you feel better. And we say it all the time, it might make you feel better. So originally, he was supposed to speak the words Rosie Greer was, and he insisted on singing it. And they're like, Oh, God, can this guy sing? And he again, indelible. Yes, his voice is absolutely indelible. And then he improvised at the very end of the song. You might remember, the song is over, okay, I'm gonna cry again too. And I don't mean to make fun of his voice. It's just that this is how he says it. He says, it's all right to cry. Little boy, I know some big boys who cry too. It's

Unknown Speaker 57:37

all right to cry. Little boy, I know some big boys that cry too, and

Kristin Nilsen 57:44

that's just improvised, and he's and they said, Marlo Thomas, like, jumped up and threw her arms around him when he said that, because he's so goddess, he knew why they were there. I

Michelle Newman 57:55

think it's really interesting. We've been talking about how there's all these adults that are coming up with all these songs and concepts and things to teach. But you said that they, you know, went to the to the school, and they're talking to children, and they're getting they're almost using children as their little focus groups and and, you know the song, sisters and brothers, which is the next song on the album. You see in the TV special, this really lovely gathering of all these little children. And when I saw that, when I was re watching it recently that something pinged inside my head too. Remember this, and it's so cute. And there's Marlo Thomas looking just ridiculously beautiful with a lot, you know, the long straight, this is early 70s, right? So long, straight, dark hair parted in the middle, and the giant eyelashes, and that's how I wish I could have looked in our Lake Minnetonka magazine.

Kristin Nilsen 58:43

I want to look like that every day. Yeah,

Michelle Newman 58:47

children tell me about your sisters and brothers and all these cute little early 70s kids are being very, very honest with her, and the way she responds to them is just lovely. And everything they say is fine. Like, one of them's like, I don't, like, you know? She's like, I wish I didn't have a brother. And she's like, You do, like, oh, like, what you know? And well, because he, you he, you know what's me. And she's like, Yeah, he raises his best, yeah, it's me, and, and, but she's just so accepting, and she just, she just reflects their feelings so well. And she would have been an excellent child therapist. She would have been an excellent teacher. And actually, she sort of became that, really, without all the, you know, maybe the titles, that's, yeah, actually what she's become, and she's such an advocate for children. So I just love that they spent time talking to children about this as well. Yeah. And

Kristin Nilsen 59:37

then that leads right in the in the video. It leads right that segment leads right into the song sisters and brothers, which is this huge celebration of dancers in the park, which is how I want to live my life every day, brothers and.

Michelle Newman 1:00:00

Jesus. Yeah, can we learn that choreo on those pillars? Yes, please. On the all we ever do is just do this. Yes, if you're, if you're on Patreon, if you're, if we put this on, you can see it, yeah, they're doing it. And then being a little dance they do. They step, step, they kind of March. And then they turn sisters and brothers, and they turn the other way, and then they turn around. Don't fall off.

Kristin Nilsen 1:00:27

They don't fall off the pillars, yeah. And it's sort of like in our solid gold episode. We like that. Solid Gold epitomizes what dancing looked like in the 80s. This epitomizes what dancing looked like in the 70s. So sisters and brothers is they switched it. It's the the normal gospel greeting, because this is a gospel inspired song, is brothers and sisters, and they turned it around to be sisters and brothers. Because why does the boy always come first? And this is something that I'm a stickler on. Whenever Mike and I are signing things, like, we're buying a new car. We're signing a mortgage. I'm like, No, I signed my name first. And he's like, why? It doesn't matter. I'm like, trust me, it matters. But if you look closely at this, at this part of sisters and brothers and those beautiful dancers and the people who I want to dance with in the park, well, you don't even have to look closely. It's very clear. There's a girl in the front who has long black braids and very blunt bangs. And you will recognize her from electric company. That is June Angela from the short circus, my favorite dancer and singer in the electric company. And she's front and center in this video. I love it. And then we have Williams doll, performed by Alan Alda and Marlo Thomas. This comes from a picture book by Charlotte zalitao. And I think a lot of people have a lot of very strong feelings about William's doll. The grandma is the hero of the story here, which makes a lot of sense, because grandmas are very wise, and they see things quite plainly. And she says, Well, of course, William should have a doll, because, duh, he might have a baby someday. And I remember as a kid feeling so indignant, like parents are so dumb, like this is not a radical idea, it's just simple logic, and these idiots couldn't get it. And I just felt so grateful for that grandma. The record includes a book of lyrics, and just reading the lyrics to the song, I got all choked up. It's when she says, And Bill said, baseball is my favorite game. I like to play. But all the same,

Unknown Speaker 1:02:34

I give my back and fall in love to have a doll that I could

Kristin Nilsen 1:02:39

love. And Marlo Thomas for not being a singer, it's this singing is almost plaintive, like it's a plea. She's really giving a plea, like, I love baseball, but I would give my bat and ball and glove to have a doll that I could love, and it just makes me all choked up. So there was some criticism about free to be you and me in general, being too heteronormative, as if Williams doll was a cop out, because the reason he it's okay to have a doll is because he'll be a father someday, and not that he might be gay. Or, you know, anything else on on, you know, the continuum between these two things

Michelle Newman 1:03:17

about that, yeah, is that a criticism from back in the 70s, or is that a criticism today?

Kristin Nilsen 1:03:22

It is from back in the 70s. Yeah, I don't know how close yeah to the right it was. I

Michelle Newman 1:03:29

agree, because it's almost like they could, in some situations, they couldn't win. It's almost, it seems totally

Kristin Nilsen 1:03:34

and imagine if it was because Bill was gay. Imagine if that was the case, that record would have been banned Absolutely, because

Michelle Newman 1:03:42

it is interesting that there's not any song about children being gay. No, there isn't there,

Carolyn Cochrane 1:03:48

is she? And so mentioned that she's received a lot of letters and stuff from gay men that this was, it touched them like they that's how they heard it as a child. Was that it

Kristin Nilsen 1:04:00

was yes, this was the this was the first time they got any signal that it was going to be okay, that they were okay the way that they were, despite the fact that it was because he was going to be a father someday.

Michelle Newman 1:04:11

But also, also, can I just say something? And I think this goes without saying, I just have to say it, that just because, like, a little boy wants a doll like it doesn't mean that they're gonna be gay when they point like that should be the message too, that you don't have to have a doll just because you're gonna be a father someday. You don't have to love a doll because you already know that you're gay. You could just you don't have to know anything except that you want a doll, right?

Kristin Nilsen 1:04:36

And that's it. That's all that matters. That's all that it matters, right? And actually, the message could have backfired if it had been that William was gay, because then people would have linked those two things. But yes, indeed, when you want to go it does mean that you're gay. That makes

Michelle Newman 1:04:51

me angry, yeah. And

Carolyn Cochrane 1:04:52

if you're, if you're gay, you can be a dad too. I mean, I feel like this is also like

Michelle Newman 1:04:57

it's saying whatever. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's a fact something about this. I was just going to say, because it was such this, there people criticized it so much. I learned that this song alone caused a toothpaste company to refuse to sponsor the TV show, which obviously wasn't crest, because we've seen the crest. There was someone else before, yeah,

Kristin Nilsen 1:05:17

and I bet crest came in was like, and we're going to put all men in our commercials putting their children to bed. Maybe, I bet they did. So this, so this was a very meaningful story for a lot of people, and when I look back at it, I wonder if part of my strong reaction to it was not just about this little boy, but about the fact that I didn't want a doll. And literally, I'm just putting this together as I'm listening to it this week, as I'm prepping for this episode. I'm like, is that why this is so meaningful to me? Because if William wants a doll, it might also be okay for me not to want a doll, right? Wow, I know. Except Baby Alive because she does stuff, and that's cool. I liked Baby Alive because she does, but otherwise, no, I, I didn't, I didn't want, I didn't want a doll, and I, and that was very awkward in some circumstances, me not wanting a doll unless it had some mechanics inside. And it's not like I'm mechanical or sciency. I just thought it was cool,

Carolyn Cochrane 1:06:18

right? And imagine you wanted them all do given these things as gifts, like from your grandmother or from your parents, and you know, do you? Do you announce that you don't want it? Well, probably not. You've been taught manners. Do you think something's wrong with you? Like everybody thinks this is something that I want and should have, and that has to be hard, so I'm sorry, little Kristen,

Kristin Nilsen 1:06:37

are you? Thank you, because that is an issue. Because then are you, are you disappointing someone when you don't want that dog or

Carolyn Cochrane 1:06:46

me? Like, why don't I want it? Like, why does everyone think I want it and I don't? Is there something that I'm doing wrong? It's

Kristin Nilsen 1:06:53

very complicated. And you and it all becomes internalized. It's all. It all turns back on yourself and and I think I was pretending like, Oh, thank you, and I'm gonna go play with my dolly now. But it was all very loaded. It was very loaded, and I felt icky. Yeah,

Michelle Newman 1:07:14

that's sad.

Kristin Nilsen 1:07:17

It's hard to be a kid. Okay, next on the album is Atlanta, which is performed by Alan Alda and Marlo Thomas. And this is a big favorite of people's two. Alan Alda actually directed all the performances on the album, and he wanted to use sound effects and really make things come alive as if it was a radio show. And you hear this especially well on Atalanta. You hear it in all the poems too. If they talk about pots and pans, you hear pots and pans. And so Atalanta is one of the best examples of this. I think this is the pinnacle of the entire project right here. This is Marlo Thomas's story. She doesn't want to get married. And she also, very pointedly made sure that Atalanta had dark hair.

Michelle Newman 1:08:00

Well, it's because she this goes back to her bedtime story for Dion. I mean, she wanted at least one story on the album about a princess who wasn't blonde and who didn't have to get married at the end. And so it was Betty Miles, who updated the ancient myth of Atalanta, but she made her brunette because in the ancient myth, she's blonde, so she switched her hair to brunette, and she gets to decide for herself if she's gonna marry the prince. And

Kristin Nilsen 1:08:24

the story, I think the most impactful part of the story, is this race at the end, in which you know the winner is supposed to be the the husband for Atlanta, and Atlanta swings a deal with her dad. Well, what if I run the race too, and if I win, and I get to choose, or I don't have to choose. But then we have young John from the town, and he's interested in being in this race, but he doesn't want to marry Atlanta until she unless she wants to. And what he really wants to do is talk with her. And I think what she's doing here is really showing us what we should be looking for in a potential partner. Young John is who we want, right?

Carolyn Cochrane 1:09:03

But you know what struck me? I just really was kind of sad about her dad. Like I was thinking, Do you love your dad at Atlanta? Like, I know putting you in I just and even re watching it. I kind of remembered thinking that, like, is her dad bad? And is she gonna, like, ever come back and visit him? Because even when they tied, she she said, like, or he said, you know, basically you didn't win. Like, since you tied, John gets to decide. And I thought, Yeah, you didn't listen to your daughter. You're mean, I don't like that. Oh yeah,

Michelle Newman 1:09:36

he's not. I don't that's so

Kristin Nilsen 1:09:38

interesting. You just You look very down in the Dumpy right now.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:09:42

I mean, at that age, I just couldn't imagine, like, not loving your dad, or your dad being mean and doing something that you specifically said, please don't do that. I don't want to marry someone and like not listening and this man, your dad. Doesn't care and is going to do this thing that will make you sad. I don't know, it was hard for me. That

Kristin Nilsen 1:10:06

is a really interesting take on this story. I wonder how many other people had the same kind of feelings. Because I think most of the people were focused on Atlanta and whether or not she was getting married, and here poor Carolyn was like, But your dad is me,

Carolyn Cochrane 1:10:18

yeah, and like, are you going to go

Michelle Newman 1:10:20

exactly? Many people, probably a lot of people listening to were like, yeah, that's my dad, yeah. I mean, you were just lucky to have a nice support, it was.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:10:27

And at that point, you think everybody does, you know, when you're that age, yeah. So that's true. So

Kristin Nilsen 1:10:32

in during the race, is really where you can hear Alan Alda is directing. This is where it really shines, because Atlanta and young John are neck and neck, and so when they're speaking the lines from the story, they're speaking them in unison. The two of them, they're reading the story together, and they have you can hear the foot falls, and Marlo Thomas says she remembers running in place so that when she read she would sound like she was breathless, and the effect is just really intense. I think John didn't

Speaker 4 1:11:02

give up nothing at all. Thought he would keep me from my hope of winning the chance to speak with Atalanta. And on, he ran swift as the wind until he ran as her equals, side by side with her for the golden ribbon that marked the race's end.

Speaker 6 1:11:15

Atalanta was aware of him, and she raced even faster to pull ahead, but

Speaker 4 1:11:19

young John was a strong match for her, smiling with the pleasure of the race and Atlanta and young John reached the finish line together, and together, they broke through the golden ribbon

Kristin Nilsen 1:11:28

that marked, of course, the race is a tie. They crossed the finish line together, and the message of equality in that reading, it rings clear. I don't know that I understood that when I was listening to it when I was a kid, but when I listened to it now, and they're speaking together, and they finish together, equality equals equality. That's what we're looking for in this record. And

Michelle Newman 1:11:52

he gives her a handshake. Yes, he does. And they go up to explore their worlds on their own before they're because John maybe they'll get together. It says maybe they'll meet up again, or not. You think she

Carolyn Cochrane 1:12:03

goes and visits her dad at all?

Kristin Nilsen 1:12:05

Yeah, I do. I think she visits her dad. Does she get married to young John? I don't know, but you know the truth is, yes, she's going to come back and marry young John, because no other man in the village is going to be that cool, right? If

Michelle Newman 1:12:18

you think about she might not get married at all, or she might not get married at all, right, that is true. Maybe she'll marry a woman. We don't know that's true.

Kristin Nilsen 1:12:25

We don't even have any idea if she swings that way. So, right? Who knows? And we also know that Marlo Thomas famously resisted, well, she resisted getting married to Donald Hollinger, in that girl, and then she famously resisted getting married to Phil Donahue, even they did eventually get married, didn't they?

Carolyn Cochrane 1:12:43

Oh my gosh, yeah, they've been married since 1980 I think they've been married a very long time. Isn't he dead? No, oh, he's not.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:53

Oh no, no, not dead. And

Carolyn Cochrane 1:12:54

what's very interesting, if you stars in the house episode, he must not be aware that she's on this zoom call, and you can see her like, looking up, like, over here, like in, like, tiny, white honey, pretty much. So, oh, godies. But you see her like, looking up at someone you don't know. I'm assuming. I bet that's filled out of you. Is he gonna pop in and go, hi guys? No, he doesn't. He walks behind at some point, like, in his undershirt, and I think I don't think that his hand was like, but he was just like,

Kristin Nilsen 1:13:39

Okay, girl land, performed by Jack Cassidy and Shirley Jones. This is written by Mary Rogers and Bruce Hart. Do you guys remember in our very first episode, episode number one of the pop culture Preservation Society, and we're playing a game called name that Cassidy? And the point of the game is that I would name a title of a song, and then you would tell me which Cassidy sang the song, and I gave the title girl land. And you guys, remember what

Michelle Newman 1:14:08

you said? We said it's toy land. It's toy land. You

Kristin Nilsen 1:14:11

did. You insisted it was soon

Michelle Newman 1:14:14

we weren't thinking of right record, right? Yeah, exactly.

Kristin Nilsen 1:14:18

And I'm like, no, no, you guys, it's Jack Cassidy, it's Shirley Jones. It's not for everybody. It's Girling like, no, no, it's toy land. And so it eventually got cut from the episode because we couldn't agree. Let's just confirm that girl land, yes, by Jack Cassidy, Shirley Jones, and this is nobody's favorite song. It is scary and creepy, and it's very ominous, and nobody likes it. And I think that there is, there's something to be said for the value of the song, but it's scary, sort of in the same way that clowns are scary. Jack Cassidy comes in. He's like a carnival barker, and he tells us what girl land was like, wonderful

Speaker 7 1:14:57

girl land, the island of joys, where goodness. Two girls pick up after the boys.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:03

Come on in.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:06

Look about you

Speaker 6 1:15:08

go in a girl, and you'll never get out.

Kristin Nilsen 1:15:12

It's very frightening. But then, if you listen, if you tune in to Shirley Jones, at the end, they talk about how girl land is turned into a park, and it's a park where you can you be who you can be who you are, and you can do what you want. And so really, the point is right there, but I don't think I ever got to the point because I was afraid of the scary carnival barker

Carolyn Cochrane 1:15:33

well, and I just want to backtrack a little to toy land. So that's a different song, but it is how this song starts.

Kristin Nilsen 1:15:40

Yeah, it samples essentially what it's doing. And I always

Carolyn Cochrane 1:15:44

felt that way about the toy land song. So I'm guessing I probably picked up the needle on my album, because I don't have any recollection of this song at all, and when I've been listening to it, I thought I got creeped out just from those first lines. I've never liked toy land I'm sure I just skipped the whole entire song. I'm not gonna listen to this, and I never did, so it sounds yucky to me from even when Toyland is split. I'm actually

Kristin Nilsen 1:16:08

kind of, I'm surprised that it made it on the album, because it's so ominous, because it's so ominous, I don't get it, okay. And the very last song on the album is glad to have a friend like you,

Speaker 6 1:16:21

glad to have a friend like you. Fair and fun skipping. Glad to have a friend like you, and glad to just be

Kristin Nilsen 1:16:33

performed by Marlo Thomas and again, written by Carolyn Hall, whose kids have the female pediatrician. And the reason that we have this song is because one of the goals of,

Carolyn Cochrane 1:16:43

sorry, I just can't see that it doesn't make it as a trivia quiz at some point. Like, yeah, what writers

children had a female pediatrician,

Unknown Speaker 1:16:52

yeah. Carolyn halls, okay, so

Kristin Nilsen 1:16:55

the point of this song is that one of the it's one of the goals of the project is that boys and girls can play together. They should play together. And if we can play together without preconceived notions, sexism will fall away, stop categorizing us and let us gravitate toward things naturally, as opposed to the girls play with the girls. The boys play with the boys. Girls play these things. Boys play these things, and it reminded me of my story about Miss Keatley, my gym teacher in elementary school, from our episode about gym stories, about gym horror stories, because Miss Keatley would take us, we would come to her class and our girl lines and our boy lines, and as soon as we got to miss Keatley, remember, I didn't know if Miss Keatley was A boy or girl, and she would put us in people lines. And now I realize what she was doing is she was trying to mix us up so that we can be who we want to be. We don't have to categorize ourselves and do separate activities. And I always wondered if Miss Swartz, who had put us in our girl lines and our boy lines, was irritated when she came to pick us up at Miss keatley's class, and we were all mixed up in people lines. She never put us back in girl lines and boy lines. We walked back to our classroom and our people lines. But now I realize what Miss Keatley was doing.

Carolyn Cochrane 1:18:14

I bet she loved this album. I bet she did. I bet she

Kristin Nilsen 1:18:17

did okay. So the effect of free to be you and me. There was a backlash from conservative religious leaders, especially James Dobson. I bet a lot of your parents had James Dobson books on your shelf because he wrote a lot of parenting books. And there was even a very famous New York Post article that Michelle is going to tell us about right now that actually this is not from a long time ago, if I'm correct,

Michelle Newman 1:18:39

no, and I feel like we seem to have two camps here. So I'm going to just summarize a debate that was still going on on free to bees. 40th anniversary, you guys. This is a debate that was still going on just 10 years ago from a March 8, 2014 New York Post. Article was by Kyle Smith. It was called how free to be you and me a masculine, emasculated men. So basically, the end, like we know, we know right away, what Kyle Smith's point? You know, what his stance is. He calls free to be a piece of MS foundation produced feminist propaganda disguised as entertainment for children. And he goes on to say about the TV special. And I just have to read this, because it's so effective. Offensive that I don't even want to paraphrase the show. This is what he says the show, which is of course, unwatchable today, except perhaps in states with generous attitudes towards self medication, such as Colorado and Washington, was an hour long special that meant to tell little girls they could be anything they wanted, and little boys, they could be anything they wanted to provide that what they wanted to be was girls, ouch

Unknown Speaker 1:19:50

and wrong, right? Really?

Michelle Newman 1:19:51

Yes, this is what he this is what he got out of this. He also says the program's most searing and indelible. Was the horrifying sight of Rosie Greer, a huge man once known as one of the most ferocious players in the NFL, strumming a guitar. Listen to what he says, smiling like a brain donor and singing, it's all right to cry. He then blasts Dudley and the principal, alluding to some sketchy wrongdoings after they go off into the forest. Nice job, buddy. Yeah, after dissecting Atlanta and somehow deciding it emasculates men and renders them genderless, he says, I just this. I can't even he says, no wonder that the girls of the free to be generation would grow up to buy millions of copies of 50 Shades of Gray. So 40 years of gender re education later, the only place they could find masculine men anymore was fiction. Okay, as if 50 Shades of Gray means like, as if BDSM means like a man is masculine, as if the men portrayed in 50 Shades of Gray, as if this type of, oh my god, I can't even.

Kristin Nilsen 1:21:03

It's so uninformed you can't even it's you can't even form a response to it, because it lacks so much knowledge about who we are, about who other people are, in general. Well, and let's

Michelle Newman 1:21:16

not forget, this is only 10 years ago, and guaranteed. Wow. This, this, this camp is still a thought. Is still very,

Carolyn Cochrane 1:21:24

very, trust me, I went down my rabbit hole to look up Mr. Kyle Smith and see what his latest tweets were. And oh, I

Michelle Newman 1:21:33

can only imagine. So, Emily shyer immediately slaps back at Kyle Smith and her Daily Beast article, cleverly titled free to be did not emasculate men. It was literally three days later she writes an article, and she goes calls it free to be did not emasculate men, and she says she was shocked to be having to defend this 40 years later, which is what I ridiculous. So she called his analysis convoluted, sexist and borderline homophobic, and went on to defend Rosie Greer's performance, pretty much as we, or anyone would do with a working brain, I would like to think and all of

Kristin Nilsen 1:22:11

the people who love it, yes, have you ever heard anyone who doesn't like that performance? I've never once in my entire life went, Oh, God, I hate it's all right to cry, no, but

Michelle Newman 1:22:21

also, let's go back to Kyle Smith, like, let's just hit below the belt and be like, what? Like a brand owner, like, what? So she says, Well, she defended it as nothing but a wonderful thing for a boy to see a big man, a hero, a hero, telling him it's all right to cry. That's so impactful. How is that anything but impactful anyway? Right? And I don't need to go into all of Emily shires individual slap backs, although I do like how she says that him saying it's understandable that those of us in the free to be generation buying millions of copies of 50 Shades is a completely heteronormative presumption that masculinity is a quality only exuded by men who have sex with women. Oh, my job. And then what I think she says that is most impactful about these issues and these ongoing issues and this ongoing debate is this. She says, You see, the larger message of free to be is not actually about redefining masculinity or femininity, but rather learning to be comfortable with who you are, and no conforming to some outside expectation that someone could write something so simplistic and chauvinistic about gender roles reveals why free to be is still relevant and needed 40 years later. Lee,

Kristin Nilsen 1:23:36

yes, that's why it sold over 10 million copies. That's exactly right, because we still have people who need to hear the message. It's not about it's not saying to girls, you should want to work and you should want to be doctors, you should do exactly what you want to do. You have the freedom to do that.

Michelle Newman 1:23:56

Yes, you should grow up to be whoever it is you want to be. And can I just read you something that Gloria Steinem wrote in this book when we were free to be looking back at a children's classic and the difference it made. So Gloria Steinem wrote an essay in here, and she says, and this is just from what was this just 10 years ago as well? I believe. She says, now the question is, when so much has changed, when an African American president has brought his two young daughters to live in the White House. Female athletes are running faster than Atlanta, and homophobia is giving way to equality and marriage and the military. Why is free to be still beloved and almost as popular as ever. I think all we have to do is look around way too many little girls are encouraged to be silly, seek approval only from boys and be mean to other girls. They are also sexualized younger than ever by media, ads and popular culture, boys are exposed to cruel and dehumanize and dehumanizing war games, not just in movies and TV, but now also on smartphones and home computers, where they enter into the conflict. It's not surprising that bullying has become amazing. Your danger. People of color will soon become the majority in this country for the first time. But instead of celebrating the fact that we now look more like the world, some white Americans are so dependent on old hierarchies that they are rebelling against government and saying no to democracy itself. So yes, there's been a lot of progress, but there's also been a backlash against it. Nowhere is it written that progress will win. It depends on what you and I do every day. I suggest you read, free to be you and me again,

Kristin Nilsen 1:25:28

clapping for Gloria. I mean, seriously, I should just end

Michelle Newman 1:25:31

the episode right there. And because we can talk about this like, do we think this worked for us, right? We can say, do we think by listening to this and being exposed to this as children in the 70s, this changed our paths. And I would say yes and no. A lot of the same things that were still working against us in the 70s are sadly, still working against boys and girls today. So I don't know that I could say definitively Yes, it did. I feel like for us. I think it's an individual thing. I think that we can all say yeah, yeah, that, you know, I'm a little boy, and I made me know that it's all right to cry or, Oh, I, you know, I'm a little girl, and I learned from Atlanta that I can make my own decisions, and I can be strong and independent and not have to get married or anything. But I think that the children today still need it. Oh, I don't think we can say that it worked. And now we and it worked, and it changed everything, and now we can put it away. I think the message is that we still need it

Kristin Nilsen 1:26:30

well. And I think when, when people get very upset and say that it didn't work, because I do hear that from people, I can't believe we're still talking about this, how it didn't work at all, but just the fact that you're ranting about the fact that it didn't work shows where your values are, and how is it that that message didn't seep inside your brain because you're upset by the things that haven't changed, that means it did work on you. But like you said, we're talking about a larger society here, but even in terms of society, even those, even though those things do still exist in a in a scary degree, in a way where we still have to remain vigilant, I just look at the kids that that exist in my neighborhood, and my kids friends, and there is not a single person that doesn't have some sort of free to be you and me aspect about them.

Michelle Newman 1:27:21

I do believe that the generation now that are in their 20s, and maybe even then, maybe even like younger than that. I mean, I just think it's getting better and better, and that kids are feeling like they can be free to be who they are, and almost regardless of what their parents think. Oh,

Kristin Nilsen 1:27:39

absolutely, regardless of what their parents think. So I think to solve this conversation, I'm going to read you the back page of the lyric booklet, which was included in the record. So if you turn the booklet over, there's a note from a woman named Dr Dorothy Cohen, who is the author of a book called The Learning child, published in 1972 and she says the many gifted participants in this work have poked fun with undisguised pleasure at the attitudes that have been taken seriously for centuries by raising doubts about traditional restrictive models for men and women alike. The record opens up for children the happy VISTA that all individuals, male or female, are people above all. And in 2021 the album was deemed culturally, historically or esthetically significant by the Library of Congress and select for preservation in the National Recording Registry. Thank you so much for listening today.

Michelle Newman 1:28:36

Thanks so much to everyone for listening and supporting us by sharing our podcast with others, and by rating, reviewing and following us wherever you listen, that's apparently very important in the podcasting world, and it's the only way we will keep getting heard, and for Amy Poehler and Tina Fey to hear us as well. And a special, special, thank you to our supporters on Patreon for quite literally, helping this podcast keep on trucking. Today, we are giving a special shout out to patrons, Lisa Natalie, Nina, Lorna and J S Fresh, fresh. That was my mother in law's maiden name. I wonder if J S is related. Thank you all so so much, and we hope you're enjoying all the fun content, the exclusive content over on our Patreon page. If you want to check it out, just go to patreon.com and type our name, pop culture Preservation Society in the search bubble. And if you're not able to join us on Patreon at this time, don't worry. We appreciate your listening ears and your support and your just sharing our podcast every single day. Thank you.

Kristin Nilsen 1:29:46

In the meantime, let's raise our glasses for a toast, courtesy of the cast of Threes Company, two good times, two

Michelle Newman 1:29:52

Happy Days, Two Little

Carolyn Cochrane 1:29:54

House on the Prairie. Cheers. Cheers,

Kristin Nilsen 1:29:56

cheers. The information, opinion. And comments expressed on the pop culture Preservation Society podcast belong solely to Carolyn the crushologist and hello Newman, and are in no way representative of our employers or affiliates. And though we truly believe we are always right, there is always a first time the PCPs is written, produced and recorded in Minneapolis, Minnesota, home of the fictional wjm studios and our beloved Mary Richards Nano. Nano, keep on trucking and may the Force be with

Unknown Speaker 1:30:23

you. Something always

Unknown Speaker 1:30:25

happens whenever

Unknown Speaker 1:30:27

we together, you.